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GM, who says he doesn’t? I wouldn’t expect anyone to post a list of their own shortcomings on the CR, but that doesn’t mean someone thinks they’re perfect and has nothing to be worked on.
I think it’s a very good thing to take a stand against dishonesty, even if there are differences of opinion as to what specific things fall into that category.
Syag Lchochma – I’m not following the seeming dissonance between your position on not judging Rubashkin (which I agree with) even though he’s been convicted by a non-Jewish court and your position on accepting the judgement of other yidden who are convicted by a non-Jewish court.
?
I didn’t say not to judge rubashkin, i said people shouldn’t discuss details of his case as if they had a clue what was fact. The habit of stating “facts” about subjects when in fact you are stating some rumor/opinion/speculation you heard or read somewhere is wrong.
Reagrding accepting judgement of other yidden who are convicted by a non-Jewish court – I don’t know what you are referring to. If I know someone is guilty, it wouldn’t be because they were convicted. It would be because of knowing first hand information or first hand information from a non-disputable source. I don’t remember saying otherwise.
ZD, instead of criticizing those that have a Nisayoin of not stealing why not look at yourself and you will discover you have many imperfections just like the rest of us. Work on yourself before trying to perfect others
Kol Bnei Yisroel Erevin Zeh L’Zeh
If Someone had A Nisayon to eat Pork or to watch TV on Shabbos, would you say the same thing?
If Someone had A Nisayon to eat Pork
Or Twizzlers without a sticker. 😉
Syag Lchochma – Can you give an example of knowing first hand information demonstrating guilt? That would seem to be pretty rare unless you witnessed the crime yourself.
Also, even if you saw it yourself, is there no concern of loshon hora? After all, loshon hora is about wrongdoing that is true.
EretzHaK – no, im really not interested in giving examples because that has nothing to do with this conversation. We were talking about what people do and rubashkin was brought up (as always) with comments stated in the definitive for m about what he did and what he was convicted for and what actually went on. My statement was that people should not speak up and give definitive statements about things that they do not know definitively. And before you start playing games with the word definitive, I am talking about people saying, “Well rubashkin wasn’t really blah blah blah” as opposed to saying ,”well I was under the impression that rubashkin blah blah blah”.
Does everyone here who is judging others declare all their out-of-state online purchases on their state tax return that they didn’t pay sales tax at the time of the sale? Otherwise you’re a tax cheat.
why would you assume people don’t? What kind of view of halacha do you have that you ask these tax reporting questions as if you assume people don’t do them? I don’t hear you asking if people really bother checking for bugs or for hechsherim. why would lying on tax forms be something any less expected?
“why would you assume people don’t?”
NPR has an article that will answer your question. It is entitled “Most People Are Supposed To Pay This Tax. Almost Nobody Actually Pays It.”
It says “It’s called a use tax. As far as I can tell, accountants and tax lawyers are some of the only people who pay it. Forty-five states have a use tax. About 1.6 percent of the taxpayers in those 45 states actually pay the use tax.”
So 98.4% of Americans who owe the tax do not pay it. (Does the 0.016 who pay cover all of unzere?)
“Like most states, Connecticut rarely goes after anyone for use tax violation… But states seem to be abandoning the idea that people will pay the use tax.”
NPR? i’m speaking to a room full of frum people. who are you speaking to?
To a room full of frum people. And you are kidding yourself if you think that even 10% of your frum family members who file a state tax return in one of the 45 states with a use tax (and made out-of-state/internet purchases that didn’t have sales tax charged) kept track and declared their purchases for the past year on the state return and paid the use tax.
Unless they’re all part of the national 1.6%.
Kol Yisroel Areivim doesn’t mean you should be on your high horse.
Nor does it mean that you should not be ?? ??? ????.
Further, it does not mean you should falsely accuse people.
Just a little clarification for those who seem to need it.
you have an interesting frame of reference. it speaks volumes.
Kol Beni Yisroel Ervein Zeh L’Zeh only seems to apply when some refer to Tzniut or Internet or not keeping every Chumra, but when its brought up in relation to dishonestly or stealing from the government, People need to get off their “high horse”
Just a litte clarification for those who need it
DY, North Dakota’s use tax was struck down (Quill Corp. v. North Dakota, 504 U.S. 298 (1992)) by SCOTUS. The Illinois Supreme Court struck down that state’s use tax 6-1 (PERFORMANCE MARKETING ASSOCIATION, INC.v. HAMER), Some states have tried to get around it by making it into a type of surtax on income taxes but until and unless Congress acts (the Senate passed a bill three years ago but the House has yet to pass it). Of course, one can get around NY’s completely by having the merchandise delivered to a friend or relative in NJ, which does not have such a tax.
As for criticizing other people’s failings, there is a mitzva to inform someone when he is violating the Halacha if he is generally observant. It is certainly a mitzva to make a general observation that something is prohibited.
gavra – 99% of Americans who owe it do not pay the use tax (including not using the table) and none of the 45 states that have it on the books enforce it or try to collect it. Jaywalking is also against the law. Do frum people who live in middle of a long avenue walk to the corner to cross to the neighbor directly across the street? If not, are they violating Dina D’Malchusa despite it being Shabbos in a frum neighborhood with not a car for miles in sight?
i was wondering where joseph went. im not wondering anymore.
EretzHak – NPR probably did a study saying most people cheat on their spouses, should i assume that that includes my frum family as well?
Don’t you chap that quoting NPR as a legitimate news source probably is no different than quoting your eight year old or your old neighbor down the block?
gavra – Jaywalking laws would be as much dina dmalchua as driving through a red light. Safety laws are covered as part of dina d’m.
Syag – the data I happened to quote from NPR isn’t from them, they among others just covered the story and that fact. Nor is the data under dispute. 99% of Americans who owe use tax don’t pay it. Nothing particularly controversial about pointing out that undisputed figure. It’s even higher than the number of Americans who disregard the jaywalking laws. 🙂
Gavra. in NYC jaywalking is a municipal offense (see “A Brief History Of ‘Jaywalking’ In NYC”). In other jurisdiction it may be a violation of a state law. Cities are state entities so they also have a degree of sovereignty in accordance with state law. Depending on the circumstances it could also be a violation of “venishmartem meod lenafshtechem”. I once read that when a woman jaywalked without incident in Israel another woman walked up to her and told her that some of her merits in Heaven were spent.
It is not a crime to Jaywalk, its a Petty Offense meaning they can fine you but thats all and it doesnt go on your record
If you are convicted of fraud, it does go on your rap sheet and stays with you forever unless the president pardons you
Zahavasdad, the Merriam-Webster dictionary defines “crime” as”:
: an illegal act for which someone can be punished by the government
: activity that is against the law : illegal acts in general
: an act that is foolish or wrong
Gavra, that is a complex issue. I refer you to the Machon Tzomet’s on-line article
???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? which discusses it. However, apparently this does not include a case where the ???? can make an evaluation or has a range (in the case of fines) as the practice in Germany was for the shamash to enter Jews’ homes and see how they were living in order to assess their communal tax obligations (“Yuspa of Worms”)
YW, Gavra. Purim sameach.
What is the law for someone who steals financially by using someone else’s American airlines card or Costco card to save himself money? Both pure corruption and stealing. Your Costco card includes you, your spouse and your single children.
What is the law for someone who steals financially by using someone else’s American airlines card or Costco card to save himself money? Both pure corruption and stealing. Your Costco card includes you, your spouse and your single children.
I dont know what the law is, but I do know that Costco can cancel your account if they catch you using their membership against the rules that they decide
“99% of Americans who owe it do not pay the use tax (including not using the table) and none of the 45 states that have it on the books enforce it or try to collect it”
New York tries to collect it. You have to report and pay on your state income tax return and if you lie about it you have committed perjury, a much more serious crime than not paying a small amount of tax.
That doesn’t mean they enforce it.
Charlie, based on what is stated in “Use Tax for Businesses” on their website I would not give it much chance against a court challenge considering the established jurisprudence and SCOTUS’ ruling which I posted previously.
According to “criminal Defense Lawyer” to establish that someone has committed tax perjury the government must prove that the defendant
1. signed a false document, whether a tax return or any other paper submitted to the IRS
2. stated that he or she signed it under penalty of perjury
intended to violate the law.
Thus, it would seem that if a person reasonably believes that this tax is illegal he has not committed perjury.
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