What is the appropriate punishment for financial crimes?

gavra – halacha has provisions specifying what the penalties are for wronging an aino yehudi. As a rule of thumb, the penalties are more severe when the wronged party is a member of klal yisroel.

The Mored B’malchus question is interesting that I don’t know offhand. Rambam probably discusses it. I’m doubtful that if a Jew is Mored B’malchus against a non-Jewish monarch/government if halacha gives the non-Jewish government jurisdiction to punish him according to their own laws, however severe they may be. I suspect that halacha has its own specifications, even in such a case, what the penalty is.

nfgo3 – if you think that the secular laws and sentencing system are too lenient on financial crimes then you’re disagreeing with the Torah. Because the Torah’s penal system for financial crimes is way more lenient than the secular system.

gavra – My understanding is that halacha recognizes Bais Din as having jurisdiction even on a dispute between a Jew and a gentile. But like you, I don’t have a source offhand for that point, though such is my strong recollection.

There as an article recently in the WSJ about how difficult it is to not be in violation of one federal law or another and how ridiculous and unfair some of the laws are.

The article was From February 16.

A couple of quotes which should give pause to everyone:

Pleasant isn’t it?

And we all know how Sholom Rubashkin was charged and sentenced for not paying his beef suppliers the same day. A regulation that had never before been enforced.

I am sure that here are bloggers who spout tears over any of these stories, unless it was a Yid. Then the dina dimalchuse chanting comes out.

And cries of how bad these Jews are for making a chilul hashem.

“They stole from the government, And we do not know who turned them in. Maybe it was just a government audit that discovered it or some reporter.”

They stole from the government? And you know tis how? If this was a fact, would there not have been arrests?

From talks I’ve heard from the AG and from conversations with investigators, the overwhelming majority of any case or investigation (other than perhaps violent crimes) cames from complaints, real or otherwise.

I know people who have been harassed by meshugaim calling in some alleged complaint to a government agency, which then decides it has to “investigate”. You don’t like a charity or someone who works, a quick call to the Attorney General’s office with some trumped up complaint or allegation will cause tremendous hardship and cost.

The costs to the harassee are huge even though there is no case. I have seen this happen more than once, where I know the exact details.

Nisht, wasn’t Rubashkin convicted of defrauding a bank out of $34 million, partly by using phony invoices?

ZD,

I assume you are taking to yourself, you being a serial finger wagger and flip flopper.

Lesser,

No they didn’t. If he defrauded the bank, don’t you think the bank would have pressed charges?

He was making the payments on the lines of credit. The loans went bad when the government, on allegations of immigration and child labor violations interrupted the whole business. Allegations for which he was never found guilty and in fact some were so baseless, they were expunged.

Just another proof of how false allegations can destroy a person, family, community and business.

1. There is no question that stealing from the government should be a crime, and that the government (“malchus”) can criminalize such behavior. In a democratic country, one’s fellow citizens are also much annoyed when one steals from the government since that means you are stealing from your fellow taxpayers, who in a democracy, elect the government.

2. Many financial crimes involve disrupting markets, such as through cartels, insider trading, spreading misinformation, etc. These involve getting rich at the expense of others.

3. Whether prison is a useful penalty is questionable, but that’s a different issue.

4. It usually seems that being politically connected to those in charge helps one get away with all sorts of outrageous stuff – no hiddush in this matter.

You might be able to claim losses from madoff on your taxes as losses from a crime

Nisht, Rubashkin WAS convicted for defrauding the bank, so I don’t understand your question as to why the bank didn’t press charges.there was no question that his company hired illegal immigrants , some of whom were underage. However to get a conviction, the government had to prove that Rubashkin knew it and so the charge was dismissed since they had the bank fraud conviction.

1. How much one recovers from writing off losses due to Madoff depends on one’s tax bracket. However, it will never be even close to 100%.

2. DY, what do you mean “on a technical leveL”. If someone writes on Shabbat is he only mechallel Shbbat on a technical level?

Do you similarly consider going 56 in a 55 zone the same as doing melachah one minute after shkiah on Friday evening?

driving 56 in a 55 IS illegal, however they dont usually give you a ticket for it because they allow for the radar gun to be off a bit or your speedometer to be slightly off.

You could certainly say the same thing for a clock and perhaps your clock is a minute or 2 off and Shikia is not exact (Like you get the Shkia time for NYC (Manhattan) and you live in Brooklyn, there could be a minute or so difference

DY,

1. Take an Aramaic course. Dina d’malchuta dina means that secular law is Halacha.

2. I was commenting on your use of the term “technical level”. Being that you brought it up, wouldy ou say that someone who did a melacha one minute after Shabbat comes in (ben hashemashot may be part of erev Shabbat or may be part of Shabbat) is mechallel Shabbat on a technical level?

DY, what you apparently missed was that Rubashkin fabricated invoices to fool the bank into thinking his company did enough business could support the loan. That is not a technicality. Without that it would have simply been a bad business loan by the bank.

A somewhat similar case happened almost 30 years ago. A computer leasing company used fabricated lease agreements to convince banks to lend them millions. The principals served extensive time in Federal white collar prisons.

Someone in my town was sentenced last year to twenty years in Federal prison for his part in the theft of millions of dollars from New York City ( his share was $3 million ; a relative of his got a reduced sentence for providing documentation of the fraud and testifying against the others). He asked the judge to be assigned to Fort Dix Federal camp since it has enough frum prisonmers that there are shiurim, daf yomi and both Sfard and Askenazi minyanim. He’s MO. Not every frum convict is a victim of anti-semitism It’s a sad commentary.

Zahavasdad, I am sure all your Tax Returns are squeaky clean. You do not pay your cleaning lady off the books, report every cash earning to the IRS. , otherwise you wouldn’t be criticizing those that are not straight.

Git Mishege,

And you forgot to mention, that for someone who does much internet shopping, reported all of his out of state purchases on his state tax return.

Zahavasdad, I am sure all your Tax Returns are squeaky clean. You do not pay your cleaning lady off the books, report every cash earning to the IRS. , otherwise you wouldn’t be criticizing those that are not straight

Some of us cannot afford a cleaning lady , And I only work for people on the books. Belive it or not, Most jobs pay people on the books.

And even if I did cheat on my taxes, that is not an exuse for anyone else to cheat on their taxes. If 2 people are driving 100 MPH in a 25MPH zone and the cops only catch one of them, you cannot claim as a defense, well the other guy did it

And for the record, both Amazon and Paypal file 1099’s with the IRS

So what? that doesn’t make it ok for you to cheat the State of its’ USE TAX!

I dont buy online, I SELL online and I pay income tax on that money.

I find it hilarious that people would even think of comparing buying something online and not paying the sales tax vs stealing millions of dollars from the government

Gavra: I agree. Particularly with your last sentence.

I think I do understand, I think you are equating halachah with dina d’malchusa.

Technically one who purchases something from out of state has to report it and pay sales tax, even if the seller is not required to pay.

This is rarely, if ever, enforced, but I’ve seen the forms to report purchase (use) tax. I think this is what NDG is referring to.

From the tax.ny.gov site:

Use Tax for Individuals (including Estates and Trusts)

Tax Bulletin ST-913 (TB-ST-913)

Printer-Friendly Version (PDF)

Issue Date: Updated February 19, 2016

Introduction

New York State and local sales taxes are imposed on taxable property and services purchased or delivered to you in New York State. In most instances, when you purchase a taxable item or service in the state, or if it is delivered to you in the state, the seller will collect sales tax from you. The seller then pays the tax over to the Tax Department.

Use tax is a tax imposed on taxable items or services used in New York when the sales tax has not been paid. If a sales tax has not been collected by the seller on a taxable sale, or when taxable items or services are used in New York and the New York sales tax has not been collected, you must report and pay tax directly to the Tax Department. This bulletin discusses the circumstances when a resident of New York State would be required to pay tax on these sales and uses. There is a distinction between sales tax that should have been paid and use tax. However, for purposes of simplicity, the tax required to be paid is referred to in this bulletin as use tax.

The following are common situations in which a New York State resident may owe use tax:

purchases of taxable property or services made outside of New York State;

purchases of taxable property or services made over the Internet, from catalogs, or by phone from businesses that are located outside of New York State;

purchases of taxable property or services on an Indian reservation;

purchases where the taxable property or services are used in a different local taxing jurisdiction in the state from where they were purchased or where they were delivered.

People who are so obsessed with keeping the Halacha to the technical letter of the law, seem to want to look for every excuse not to obey the financial laws of the United States which are not Anti-Semetic laws and apply to everyone equally, not just jews

nisht is correct that if you make online purchases from merchants (Amazon, Newegg, etc.) and they don’t bill sales tax in your State, then every year when you file your State taxes you need to pay the sales tax (also called use tax) that you didn’t pay for all the purchases the previous year from merchants that didn’t bill your State’s sales tax.

Does everyone here who is judging others declare all their out-of-state online purchases on their state tax return that they didn’t pay sales tax at the time of the sale? Otherwise you’re a tax cheat.