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The person whose phone accidentally goes off and quickly shuts it after 1 ring or the 8 men who shhh him?
Without question the phone that goes off.
The only thing worse than THAT is then when someone else’s phone goes off? What is his excuse to forget to silence he just got a really loud reminder to check his phone.
And as for the guy whose phone goes off twice?!? he should be publicly shamed and expelled (permanently?) from shul
There’s no excuse for not shutting off the phone before or better yet leave it in the car. So yes everyone should shhh when it happens
and next time he will remember.
And for some reason it takes people more than 1 ring to shut it in which case they should be asked to leave.
I don’t know why people seem to sympathize more with the perpetrator than the victims.
Im way more bothered by the loud shmoozing.
In our shul in London, the Rav Shlita has put up a sign on the Shul’s notice boards that if someone’s phone goes off while they are in Shul, (EXCEPT HATZOLAH!) they must pay 30 pounds sterling to the shul gemach, payable to the Rav Shlita immediately! A few times, phones have rung and the Rav Shlita has collected handsomely for the Gemach!
There is also a picture of a soldier talking on his cell phone with his teffilin on davening during one of the recent wars with a caption, “this is when it is allowed to speak on the phone during davening”!
We should all be zocher to daven with kavana and may all our tefillot be answered le tova imminently!
The question was which is more disruptive. The answers didn’t address the question.
DY- The OP was trying to make a point that the shhhs are more disruptive. His question was rhetorical.
DY
You are correct. What is more disruptive is the shushing or if not more disruptive it is at least as disruptive and it adds additional disturbance to the first of the cell going off so if the shushers cared about disturbances theyd shush up and stop shushing.
Chit-chat in shul is by far more disruptive and most disrespectful. In fact, the gemarah that discusses ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???????, has some commentators note, that it’s even worse to be INSIDE shul shmoozing while they’re davening!!
DY- The OP was trying to make a point that the shhhs are more disruptive
Yes, and the responses that the cell phone holder has no excuse, should be fined, etc. were not to the point.
I agree with WIY, and I fail to see why we can’t be dan l’kaf z’chus that he forgot to shut the ringer.
I have a feeling that Chaza”l would not speak as harshly about someone who made an inadvertant, momentary disruption to the davening, as they do about someone who publicly shames another person.
Dy, Id like to point out that Idid in fact answer the question
What’s more disruptive, 2 men shmuezing in the main shul or 12 in the ezras nashim?
To the OP, DaasYochid, and WIY, let me ask you the following (assuming there is little/no difference between the disturbance caused by a phone going off and that of people chatting):
What is more disruptive in shul, the guy talking during Chazoras Hashatz, or the people who sshhh him?
Your comments above indicate you would take the side of the guy being shushed. However, the Mechaber rules ‘Vegoarin bo’ – such a person should indeed be told off, and forcefully too.
It would appear there is actally a Chiyuv to sshush someone whose phone goes off (albeit only during Chazoras Hashatz)!!
The Best Bubby- The Takana of your Shul is really great! I bet after paying once or twice it doesn’t happen again.
Unfortunately I don’t think Rabbanim in America have the same power as in Europe.
Leyzer, does it specify that v’goarim bo should be during chazaras hashatz?
ShalomToYou: You are right! It has happened a few times and now absolute silence B’H!. And, if only one Rav would do this in his shul and make a stand, the word would get around, and it would become a known fact that talking and cell phones are a big NO NO!
A Gut Shabbos to everyone!
What about the talkers (see Mishna Berura 124:27 for the seriousness of this aveira) and people who bring small children who are incapable of sitting quietly (ibid 98:3 and 28, 690:17)?
Is there a mekor that it’s muttar to shh someone while you’re davening shemoneh esrei?
I would say that if the talking is disturbing shushing is a tzorech of the tefilla.
What about the talkers (see Mishna Berura 124:27 for the seriousness of this aveira) and people who bring small children who are incapable of sitting quietly (ibid 98:3 and 28, 690:17)?
Worse than the guy whose cell rang because he forgot to turn it off, and immediately does so.
Avi K:
I can’t really stomach such a svara. I’d have to see something like that in the poskim because as far as I’m concerned there are not so many things that I’m allowed to interrupt my shemoneh esrei. If you had what was supposed to be a private meeting with l’havdil with Obama (just as a fun example) and were asking for something on behalf of your entire tzibur, and someone around you was making noise you wouldn’t “shh” them while having your important conversation. You might take a few seconds to regain composure, but you wouldn’t start loudly shhing everyone around you.
If it’s pikuach nefesh, I hear. If it’s a sefer that fell, and it bothers you, I hear. This? I don’t hear. I think the person who thought his cell was off/on silent, made a mistake, and did his effort to turn it off as soon as possible is a tzadik in comparison to the guy who said “SHHH” in the middle of shemoneh esrei. What heter is there? No svaras from the belly please – this needs to be written in the poskim.
There’s no excuse for shunning a person for making one mistake.
Sure there is. You kill somebody for one mistake.
maybe just don’t bring a cell phone into shul at all. I heard that in the queen of England’s palace you can’t bring a cell phone.
Yserbius123
What’s more disruptive, 2 men shmuezing in the main shul or 12 in the ezras nashim? When same people systematically arrive each & every morning the exact same # of minutes late, & we often have to await same exact people to be able to recite Kaddish after Rabbi Yischmo’el.
Then when latecomers have to run the water faucet to lave their hands, on everyone else’s Cheshbon as they disturb the people who arrived on time and are already diligently praying.
Killing people is not the same as shunning them.
Sure there is. You kill somebody for one mistake.
No we don’t. In fact, there are safeguard in halacha to make sure we *don’t* kill someone for simply making one mistake.
The Wolf
maybe just don’t bring a cell phone into shul at all. I heard that in the queen of England’s palace you can’t bring a cell phone.
Minor nitpick: There is no Queen of England. Elizabeth II is the Queen of the United Kingdom.
In any event, I find it hard to believe that a tourist visiting the palace cannot bring a cell phone with them. Do you have a cite for this rule?
The Wolf
Disruptive in Shul:
Having a conversation about the ‘debates’ going in here. You could never know who in shul is following your convo!!! – AH So that’s you PAA, CA, DY (or whoever)!! Glad to meet ya!!
“No we don’t. In fact, there are safeguard in halacha to make sure we *don’t* kill someone for simply making one mistake.”
Are you talking about hasraah? If so, it would still only be a single mistake which would lead to death.
Are you talking about hasraah? If so, it would still only be a single mistake which would lead to death.
No, because after hasra’ah, it’s clearly no longer a mistake – it’s a willful act. We don’t put people to death for mistakes.
The Wolf
I have my phone set on Blocking Mode to block all calls/texts/messages from ringing during Mincha. It works!
I was in a Yeshiva where they would SHHH babies in the EN and even birds tweeting outside!! It is ridiculous!
And if C”V the Baal Koreh makes a small mistake, half the place starts Nuu-ing him! Some things I don’t understand…
SiDi™
I hate to say it but to me the worst interuption in shul are the 5,6,7 mishulachim that collect during shma or shmonei esreh or for that mattwer anytime during davening. Our kavonos should be in the right place not reaching for dollar bills and change. Let them come after davening, i will be happy to give if I have
“the worst interuption in shul are the 5,6,7 mishulachim that collect during shma or shmonei esreh”
We don’t permit it; only before Barchu and after chazaras hashatz/leining.
What’s worse than a cell phone going off? Answering it in shul. We don’t permit cell phones to be ON in shul, yet there is always someone whose phone rings and even someone who will answer it.
However, people who learn or davin while the Rav is speaking in shul are worse than those who use their phones in shul.
which is worse
going to ywn (cr or news site) during davening or talking
Most phones have a vibrate mode, which should be used if the phone is necessary ( I.E. doctor on call, wife in ninth month, seriously ill parent in hospital )
We need an app that sets your phone to vibrate in shul.
Although davening is important I think mitzvah of tzedakah takes precendence
If one is Davening, saying a Bracha etc. he is osek b’mitzvah. Tzedakah certainly does not take precedence.
Things are so bad in my friend’s shul in Brooklyn that they put up signs first asking, and when that didn’t work, then demanding that meshulachim and schnorrers not interrupt the shliach tzibbur during chazzeras hashatz.
I agree, the meshualachim have no regard for our tefilos. If davening is our personal communion with Hashem, how dare someone barge in and distract? I immerse myself in my siddur and except for those who stick their hands under eyes, I pretty much am not aware of their presence. But when they do that, what mitzvah are they performing?
FWIW, my phone is usually still at home for Shacharis. For Mincha/Ma’ariv, however, I do have my phone with me. However, I always keep it on vibrate.
No, I don’t turn it off (and probably wouldn’t even if you asked me to – although I’d double check to make sure it was on vibrate/silent).
The Wolf
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