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If you kid can barely feed or dress themselves, I dont think you are so concerned about Davening. I know lots of people who work for Bais Ezra so I see some of the residents frequently.
ZD: agreed. Some parents of low functioning kids don’t mind sending to a public school with a separate class (frum kids only, hopefully no concern about crude language etc.) with Yiddish speaking teachers, and served Kosher meals — even if religion may not be taught — as long as they aren’t taught and sung songs about Xmas, etc. Some cultural Jewish stuff is probably allowed and done.
So that sort of arrangement, similar to what’s done in Williamsburg and maybe other places as well is something they object to in East Ramapo. And that’s one of the reasons they decided to elect a Jewish majority board that addressed the community’s concerns.
And now with a fiscal monitor — who let’s not kid ourselves, he knows why he was appointed and what’s expected of him — all accommodations are at risk.
Mamale , just a side note
The the “x” is xmas is not a jewish invention , It comes from the greek letter chi which looks like the letter X and it means our lord and savior so xmas is just as bad as any other way of saying it, The only real neutral way to say it is December 25th.
I dont know if the Williamsburg kids are frum only and I do know they dont teach them in Yiddish because the kid whom I know was sent there does not speak yiddish (She barely speaks and when she does its english) and her parents I dont think speak yiddish either (If they do they dont do it in public and dont have any yiddish accent and their other kids also speak with a typical NY accent)
Having Yiddish speaking teachers and frum classmates in a class would be wonderful for yiddish speaking children, even just a frum, any language speaker for frum children as well. It would be a gift, but I don’t know that anyone could think of it as a right. I don’t see why a public school should be held responsible to fund or provide such a thing.
(I have only been skimming some of this thread (politics doesn’t interest me but special education does) so I don’t know that anyone said they should I am just commenting on the above post.)
I have worked in schools where the non jewish teachers have been very careful about providing kosher food and some even made brachos with the kids.
ZD: thanks.
Perhaps some of the teachers or students don’t know Yiddish or there are other reasons so you could be right.
Syag: it’s obviously not so simple and you’d probably feel otherwise if it were Ch”v your kid on the line, likely being harassed for being different on multiple counts. And NYC wouldn’t have been accommodating just for the fun of it so there are most likely legal grounds.
mammale
You never answered why a kid who speaks Pashtun should not get the same treatment as a Yiddish speaker. I also think speciifically in East Ramapo there might be alot of creole speakers. In NYC there are over 100 languages spoken. The kid who only speaks Creole or Pashtun will also get harrassed for only speaking those languages.
There shouldnt be a “right” to a Pashtun or a yiddish speaker. In fact you are doing both kids a diservice because maybe while they wont speak either , many can understand languages and it better for them to understand english (especially for the day when the parents arent around) and someone will have to help them
In case anyone didnt know Pashtun is spoken in Afganistan and Pakistan.
If 70% of students in a district spoke Pashtun, there should be services available in Pashtun.
You can rarely get qualified teachers to speak any foreign language except Spanish.
That doesn’t seem to be a problem with Yiddish.
There is a far cry between davenng in a class and not being concerns with religion. Certainly there are times where the situation may require services that are not in a Jewish background, but parents are not doing it as a preference or a disregard for religion.
And children with spectrum disorders are very different than children who have no cognition or are severely developmentally disabled.
It is incorrect to aay the children are unaware.
ZD,
Why are you so hung up on Pashtun?
ZD: I never said what the Pashtun speaker should or shouldn’t get because it’s not an either or situation. We try to get services for our community and I’ll let the Pashtun speakers try to get whatever they can. If we have more voters, or clout or whatever, perhaps we can be more successful. This is America, and especially in NYC a lot of services are catered to different language speakers. As the famous mishna goes, if I’m not for myself, who will be for me?
You can call it selfish, but I doubt the Pashtun speaker will withhold asking for services in Pashtun because somewhere in Monsey a Yiddish speaker was denied Yiddish services. And believe me the Chinese have no problem either… And if the city or county refuses because it’s too costly, we can arrange for private schooling instead to meet our needs instead. And ask the county to pay for it – because it’s really a win-win situation if one looks at it with unbiased eyes.
Somehow the minorities in Rockland feel otherwise, not because they want similar services, but because they feel our services are coming out of their fair share. If the state will look at it fairly they will acknowledge that EVERYONE is being short-changed here and fix the formula as there’s simply not enough money to go around.. Problem is they went with the easier option of blaming the Chasidim/Orthodox.
I strongly suggest.you read the Tablet Mag article on this topic (The Blame Game).
Just because someone speaks yiddish, doesnt mean they are qualified to be a special Ed teacher, there is no mandate by NY to teach special ed in any language except english, Sometimes they will try to find a native speaker as long as they are qualified. They can usually find a spanish speaker who is qualified as there are alot of those.
There is also no mandate that says your kid should not be in a class where songs are sung in december about an evergreen tree. Otherwise Muslim , Hindu and other children of other religions could use the same argument
I picked Pashtun because was sort of neutral and NYC was actually looking for qualified Pashtun speakers and coulndt find any. Had I said SPanish people would have said well, there are spanish special ed teachers , There are because there are alot of spanish speakers and its not to hard to get a qualified spanish special ed teachers
And qualifications are set by the state and they include a masters in special ed from an acceditited university. I dont know exactly what the qualifications for a Bi-Lingual Special Ed teacher are. Ill assume you need that masters degree and the ability to show proficiently in that language
ZD,
You seem to operate under the misconception that just because someone speaks Yiddish and it may even be their mother tongue that they are not qualified to be teachers and do not have the certifications.
Anyone in the field can tell you that you are greatly mistaken.
BTW, their is great demand that there should be Spanish translators at the board meetings in ERSCD. there is no such demand for Yiddish translators. And all the meetings are held in English. So is it correct that Spanish should get priority over Yoddish? There are more Yiddish speaking students in the district than Spanish. By a ratio of 2 to one at least.
Just because someone speaks yiddish, doesnt mean they are qualified to be a special Ed teacher
Correct, and nobody said otherwise. They should (and I assume do) hire only qualified ones.
If by any chance you meant what NDG saw in your comment, that Yiddish speakers are all unqualified, that would be very discriminatory and unfair, inaccurate, biased stereotyping. I will assume that that’s not what you meant.
ZD really said nothing of the sort. People do a lot of speculating on his intent based on expectations, it seems. He has been right on the mark with so much of this issue, that being a homogenous group in a public school does not give you the “right” to be taught with and by your kind.
I don’t think any group of students, regardless who they are, should consider themselves entitled to be together in a class and be taught in their culture. I think you are wrong in saying I would feel differently if, ch”v, it was my child because that just says what I would want, not what the school is required to provide.
Regarding yiddish speakers, my first thought was that those who speak yiddish tend to come from cultures/communities that do not allow further education. That being the case, my first question would be whether or not the person is qualified as a degreed teacher. If he/she is, indeed, qualified then I’m all for it. I don’t think you can blame someone for assuming that it is unusual for a chassidish person not to have gone to college. Second thought would tell you that perhaps it is a non chassidish yiddish speaker. Either way is fine, it is just what pops into ones head first thing. What if it was a yiddish speaking goy, or exchassid, no longer frum but repectful to the religion and religious. Would that work? Is it really about language?
I totally agree with every fiber of my being that you cannot compare autistic to non-autistic. No matter the level of function.
and lastly, I am hoping to get hold of that article, curious to read it. Thank you for recommending it.
A few points on this: The special education classes for children from Yiddish speaking homes (so called “bi-Y” classes) are not just for children with autism spectrum disorders.
I have taught at a private secular special education school in NYC. The children there had parents who successfully fought for their children to be outplaced because the public schools did an inadequate job of teaching them. For example, one boy was a head taller than his classmates. I was told that he hadn’t learned to read, so the public schools held him back — twice. They used the same failed technique to teach him to read each time, so of course he still couldn’t read. Contrary to what some posters have implied, it’s not just wealthy parents who fight for their kids. That school had children from many socio-economic groups.
Lastly, I don’t want to mention names, but some of the replies here are so full of misspellings and typos that they’re painful to read. Proofreading isn’t that difficult. If you’re a poor spelling, consider typing your reply in a word processor that has spell checking and then doing a copy and paste.
If you’re a poor spelling, consider typing your reply in a word processor that has spell checking and then doing a copy and paste.
It doesn’t help for everything. For example, it doesn’t help if you’re just a poor writing.
(Sorry – couldn’t resist. 🙂 )
I don’t think you can blame someone for assuming that it is unusual for a chassidish person not to have gone to college.
That wasn’t the assumption that was allegedly (although I am not judging) made.
The assumption alleged to have been made (which I hope ZD will refute) is that a Yiddish speaker is assumed to not be qualified even though he is filling that position.
Those are two different things.
Syag totally got my point
I never said speaking yiddish makes you unqualified, not having a masters degree does make you unqualified
Unfortunatly today the larger majority of yiddish speakers are Chassidim or people who grew up chassidish (and became OTD) some eldery people and a select few people who either learned yiddish from their grandparents or learned from the YIVO.
In college I once took Yiddish literature in translation, the professor was a reconstructionist “rabbi” , If instead of being an acadamian he became a special ed teacher, would you accept him as a teacher? He was also anti-relgious.
How many younger yiddish speakers have masters degrees from accedited institutions in special ed? The eldery who might speak yiddish and have masters degrees probably are too old to teach anymore.
I purposely kept spanish out of the conversation and picked a neutral language like Pashtun which probably has a similar number of speakers in the NYC area as Yiddish, and the reason was Spanish is somewhat politically charged for various reasons.
and in all honesty, I would sooner put a low functioning child in a special ed public school then have my husband work there.
ZD,
But your comment presupposes that someone who speaks Yiddish is less likely to be certified. And the fact is that there are many hundreds with all the certification and qualifications. Including not just masters in special Ed but with additional specialty certifications and PhDs as well. And I am not referring to deconstructionist rabbis. I am talking chasidish men and women. With all the levush.
Just because some speaks English or Spanish does not make the person certified or qualified to be a teacher.
nisht – i really think you are overreacting. He didn’t say that, and he said that he didn’t say that. I am really sorry but you cannot blame someone on the “outside” from wondering how a pure chassidisher with all the levush got a master in education when his community speaks out VERY STRONGLY AGAINST higher education. It DOES NOT mean someone thinks them incapable! It means that it is contradictory on the surface. I would be very curious ifyou told me a chiassidisher was teaching in a special ed school because I know it goes against his mehalach, not because I think he can’t. And this is really not a side point worth pursuing.
Syag +1
you claim that there is no mandated requirement to teach special ed in languages other than English. Can you quote where you saw/learned that?
There are over 100 languages spoken in NYC, it would be an impossible requirement to get a mandated teacher in all of them. You can certainly try and Spanish it should be fairly easy and its probably not to hard in Mandarin either, but after that it gets harder and harder. I dont even know if they have translators in all languages (A side note there was recently a court case that was declared a mistrial because alot of the evidence was phone calls spoken in chassidic yiddish and they didnt have good translators of chassidic yiddish ..The YIVO coulndt do it as they speak a differnt yiddish)
GAW: There are probably more Yiddish girls/women than men in the special Ed field. Not all are Chasidish but many are. The average Boro Park girl speaks at least some Yiddish even if she’s not davka Chasidish and can brush up on her skills to teach special needs kids. We are not talking about teaching a college course in Yiddish but are discussing low functioning kids with limited vocabularies.
I think there are even distance learning programs towards a BA, maybe even for special Ed based out of Brooklyn. And of course most of these Yiddish speakers don’t currently work in public schools, but if a public school is looking to fill such a position there are many able and willing candidates.
The argument has evolved from what’s required by the County/city and I think even they’d agree that whatever’s in the best interest of the child needs to be done. Now if someone speaks Aramaic they won’t even consider asking for teachers in their language as they are well aware that the government can’t accommodate them even if they so desire. This is not the case with Yiddish in NYC nowadays.
This is not the case in Monsey either and I can’t understand how anybody can be so harsh and say these kids should “go fly a kite” because of a misguided liberal notion of government equal benefits for all or no one, coupled with an inferior shtetl mentality.
And again, despite some off-color language I still recommend the Tablet article I mentioned. Maybe someone can paste it with a little censuring? Is that allowed?
Mammale.
You missed the point, Nobody ever said these kids should just “go fly a Kite” nor did anyone say there werent Yiddish speakers in Monsey.
You didnt answer how many yiddish speakers, especially chassidish in Monsey have masters degrees in special ed from an accredited institution.
Long distance BA degrees do not have the some worth as acreditied degrees from accredited instituions, and you need masters not just a BA anyway.
I did read the tablet article, and frankly Tablet is a blog not a news site.
FTR, I can think of a number of people who grew up in English speaking homes and are fully licensed to work in Yiddish and/or Hebrew, and I believe there is a test given in Yiddish and Hebrew that can earn up to 15 (16?) credits toward a Bachelors degree and qualify someone as bilingual. And it may be less common than female special ed teachers, but I’m told that there are male special ed teachers who work with a Yiddish speaking population and that its becoming more popular.
Look at Touros site for different options for a special Ed degree. Chasidim don’t have a monopoly on Yiddish, not that it matters. And yes, frum women commute from Monsey to Touro.
The district never said they have a lack of licensed Yiddish speaking therapists, so I frankly don’t know why you are arguing this point. The issue is that ERCSD wasn’t accommodating and voting in a Jewish board solved
many issues — at least temporarily.
And this is the coffee room…. The news articles weren’t delving into the issues, just accepting all critic against Orthodox Jews at face value. You can try to argue on the merits of the points the author brings up, but by brushing it away entirely as a mere blog you are being dishonest so you can hold on to your preconceived misconceptions. And as far as I know Batya Ungar-Sargon is not Chasidic…
For this conversation Hebrew is very differnt than Yiddish. Many young frum jews who speak Hebrew have no qualms about going to a university and getting BA’s and MA’s.
How many non chassidim speak Yiddish? Among the more modern’s Hebrew is the preferred language. I think many chassidim greatly overestimate the number of yiddish speakers outside the community. Even in Lakewood the preferred language is english. In Israel I think the Litvish do speak Yiddish as opposed to Hebrew.
We are talking about Mandates here and what is mandated. And you said it was mandated to teach the special ed in their own language so thats why they had to go to more expensive schools costing the district money.
You said Art , music and Drama werent mandated by the state and thats true, but neither is Yiddish Speakers, Seperate classes , or avoidance of teaching about the fat man in the red suit. You cant have it both ways
For the umpteenth time there’s no lack of Special Ed Yiddish therapists. Even if some hail from Lakewood and Yiddish is not their first language…
I’m talking about getting the best education for our special needs kids utilizing flexibility in the law to allow for special circumstances while you’re using the law as a rigid weapon against kids desperately in need of special services. It’s (lehavdil) like Middas Harachamim vs. Middas Hadin.
And the state has the possibility to provide sufficiently for both the Public school and Jewish special Ed (which apparently is co-Ed even in KJ). They chose to begrudge us OUR TAX DOLLARS.
mammale – what you ask for is wonderful, and I hope you get it, but i cannot figure out why you think of it as a right. You can fight for it, you can win it, it will have been earned, but i don’t think it either is, nor should be a given. the public school system should not be providing teachers teaching in any language other than english and other than total avoidance of it, religion shouldn’t be brought to the classroom. you are talking about what you want, i am talking about what you are entitled to. i still hope you get it, but you are asking for things that nobody owes you.
do you think that anyone here gives yearly raises?
Syag, you’re not disagreeing with Mammele that we can (and should) fight for having the law, regulations and/or bureacracy provide Yiddish speaking special ed teachers. Even if it isn’t an entitlement. No less than Spanish special ed students would have Spanish teachers. Even if it isn’t a right.
yes and no. i dont think i am really disagreeing with her on whats important but i thought i was hearing her say that it is the states obligation. meaning, feel free to fight for it, like mentchen, but don’t consider it something they owe you.
On the other hand, no, i don’t think it should be fought for. I don’t think the public schools should pay to have yiddish classrooms taught in yiddish. and i dont want them to start teaching arabs in arabic either. if you have a high population of yiddish speakers, feel free to hire someone who speaks yiddish, but that is something different. If you want a religious education, go make one. get federal funding, but why demand it in the public school setting?
I don’t think chassidish men belong in the public schools, and i wish frum kids didn’t have to go either, but i dont understand making the public school build a frum program within their public setting. and i often hate the way it makes us look when we go demanding it.
Are you equally opposed to teaching Spanish children in Spanish?
If the public schools do teach special ed in Spanish or Chinese then you’d agree, in fairness, Yiddish parents have the moral right to fight for Yiddish teachers?
equally opposed. this is the united states of america. everyone is entitled to a spot but the government funded public school system should be in english only with accomodations for other languages (and there are many, as there should be). When spanish speakers come here and learn in spanish, they are doing a disservice to themselves and anyone who ever needs to shop, work, go to the doctor or call 911. Yes, i am equally opposed. but only within our public school system.
We already basically agreed that in Williamsburg the class for autistic kids was likely taught in English, NYC is much bigger and can handle this more than East Ramapo and likely has more yiddish speakers than in East Ramapo. How many special Ed students in NYC get taught in Yiddish. You are asking for something NYC residents dont get. Its very hard in NYC to get the city to pay for private special ed. And according to the Tablet aritcle , not that hard in East Ramapo
But once the public school has made the decision to teach special ed in Spanish and Chinese to those students, even though you were opposed to that decision, would you not have to agree they should not say yes to some languages and no to other languages (assuming they can find qualified teachers for whichever language)?
B”H I don’t have a need for these services. I was talking for those that do. I did have early intervention for a kid in the past. In Yiddish.
What you maybe don’t grasp is that there are federal mandates that public schools need to abide by, so I don’t get the distinction you make between public school and the federal government.
Also, you are basically relegating these kids to a life of even more dependency — and more government spending — if they don’t reach their full potential because they’re not getting the maximum help they need even with basics such as feeding and dressing themselves, etc.
You can’t expect a parent to pay THEIR WHOLE ANNUAL INCOME for tuition, even if you technically believe they should do just that.
The whole idea for a Jewish class in a public school setting in Monsey is to avoid having to bus to KJ — which is technically a public school as well. But they probably sing songs about Chanukah and not about… And because they do only special Ed they excel more at it versus a public school that also does special Ed.
And they charge more as well. Have they earned it or do you begrudge this to KJ residents as well?
i was actually going to respond, thinking we were having a two way conversation. but then i got to the part were you said i was begrudging and i realized we weren’t.
Its not what I belive, its what the mandate is. Special Ed is important, but so is the kid who wants to play in the band.
There are no entitlements in the society except what the goverment says you are entitled too. Any more is just what you want, not an entitlement
If it isn’t a government entitlement, we should lobby the government to make it an entitlement. Lobbying, the All-American way and constitutional right. Laws change, regulations change, entitlements change, and people lobby for them as we ought to do.
GAW: in the past lots of such kids were institutionalized, likely mistreated, with the financial burden falling on the public. Many of them are not mechuov bechinuch, I would think.
And I’m not intimately familiar with KJ so nothing I say can be used against them, but AFAIK singing cultural songs are allowed as long as it’s not of a religious nature. Think dreidel, dreidel vs. jingle bells.
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