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Serious post guyz, How do YOU define the words: “to forgive”??????
Does that mean completely erasing bad memories or things ______ did to you?
Does it mean puting it behind and pretending to be _______’s BFF again?
Soes it mean letting go of anger so strong that you tense up and cannot see or hear ______’s name nor anything related to her/him and that you CANNOT be in the same building as him/her?????
Does it mean letting go of the one incident?
Does it mean saying sorry even when ____ didnt ask for forgiveness???
Does it mean you are allowed to still be angry but understand and say you forgive when you really feel like youve forgiven but are still angry????
Does it mean telling xyz to tell ______ that you are sorry so that you dont have to speak to him/her?????
All of these are different perspectives, and possible answers, do YOU have an answer?????
Shopping. I hear you. LOUD AND CLEAR. I’m sorry you went through so much pain. No. I don’t think there are real answers, these are emotions, everyone takes them and deals with them differently. ??? ??? ???? ???? ????, a person is not held accountable (to a degree) in time of his/her anguish. We are human, people with emotions.
And know too, someone who purposefully causes another pain, agmas nefesh, physical or mental anguish, WILL NOT GO UNPUNISHED.
There is this famous story the Chofetz Chaim (yartzeit on Friday) related. In his youth there was this poor widow who lived in some home, who couldn’t afford the rent. The landlord threatened time and again, he was going to throw her out into the streets. Finally things came to a head one day, and on a frigid cold wintry day, he went and removed the roof of her home.
Said the Chofetz Chaim, for years he was wondering, how could it be, the Torah states specifically ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????. ?? ??? ???? ????…the scary curse that befalls one who pains a widow or orphan (or any other unfortunate, downtrodden fellow). How could that landlord be left living peacefully years after doing such harm to a widow. He was left with that question for many years.
Years later, said the Chofetz Chaim, he got his answer. That man was bitten by a rabid dog, he went crazy and eventually died an agonizing death. To others who knew nothing about his past, it seemed such a unjust mishap, for him, he knew that was HaShem’s intervention, His just ways.
THERE IS JUSTICE, NOW, HERE, in this world, too. ??? ??? ???? ????, everything with an exact judgement. Those who hurt you…(while we’re not supposed to wish it..), there is a True Judge watching EVERYTHING.
hope that eases up some of your pain
See that?
That’s why the Gemarah says (somewhere) ???? ????? ???? ???? ???????. It appeared that you were hurting, it tugged at me, so I responded. (next time I’ll let you…)
Forgiving definitely doesn’t mean “forgetting”. I feel it’s more like letting go of hard feelings you may have towards someone and moving on. You can still feel anger about the situation, but not towards the person who caused it. There is a quote that goes something like “G-d doesn’t give you the people you want, He gives you the people you need. To help you, to hurt you, to leave you, to love you, and to make you the person you were meant to be.”
Being new here, I’ve picked up some vibes of who is who and what is what, but I have no idea what Oh Shreck! was preaching about nor what you’ve went through. You don’t have to become best friends with someone that hurt you, but if you have a hard time standing in the same room, you’ve got yourself a problem.
Shopping613
You don’t have to forgive everything. If someone killed your family member theres no obligation to forgive them. If someone sexually abused you, theres no obligation to forgive them. If someone ruined your reputation, there’s no obligation to forgive them….
True forgiveness I think is wiping the slate clean as though the thing never happened and going back to being best friends or whatever the relationship was. However depending on the thing that was done, it is sometime best to cut off ties with the person and not try to get close again if it was a very serious offense and you suspect that the person may do something similar again.
wiy- i disagree with that. true forgiveness may be understanding that the person that hurt you has a mental disorder and although it is not her fault she hurt you, she didnt know what she was doing, that doesnt mean you need to be friends with her. its different in every case. also, its true that you are not obligated to forgive anyone, but i once heard an amazing thought on this. basically, if you are mad at someone then some space in your soul is taken up by the anger. that space would be filled with bracha if you clear it out and forgive the person. also, when you are mad at someone, life isnt too much fun. you are constantly focused on badmouthing the person, or avoiding her, or whatever it may be.
shopping- reconilation is the restoration of friendly relations.
WIY- I totally disagree about acting as if the so called “thing” never happened. That “thing” may have very possibly change or ruined who you are and in most cases, there is no way to reverse what happened. So forgiving definitely can’t mean forgetting what happened and wiping the slate clean. I understand forgiving as letting go of bitter feelings and getting rid of the desire to take revenge. It is accepting what happened and moving on. Forgiveness definitely doesn’t come naturally as resentment is a natural response to a perceived offence or injustice.
Shopping613 – One small question: if you’re past what happened, emotions involving the incident should have left, so who exactly are you angry at?
If you want to have a relationship with this person, then although it is hard id recommend communicating openly with her. Say something about how you were hurt. Use i messages for example instead of saying,”you really hurt me” say something like,” i was hurt when you did this and that” good luck!
I think when the thought no longer bothers me, I have forgiven. When I could look at a situation that hurt me so much, and think look how it helped me grow. When someone mentions that person’s name, and instead of thinking of how much they hurt me, I wonder how much hurt they have in their life to act like that. I recently read an article by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. From what I understood, he was saying how everything in our lives are meant to happen. The good, and the bad. Everything is part of Hashem’s plan to shape your life so you can fulfill your mission, and become a better person. So when someone does something against you, they are only a messenger. It’s sad they chose to be, but their judgement is in Hashem’s hand. Learn from the bad, but don’t waste your anger on it.
Also, I think the anger at how the friend won’t apologize, is just an added anger at your friend. you sound like you’re still quite upset at the whole incident. If you weren’t, why make such a big deal over whether your friends ask for forgiveness?
For the friend who cut off ties, I had that. You can try the 3 times to apologize (Sincerely. Even if it seems so irrational, just apologize for whatever you may have done, and explain that your friendship means so much, that such an ending hurt. Be prepared to let your friend go, but ask for forgiveness. )
Oh Shreck….may next year be a year of “Samchaynu Kmos Inisonu”…No more tire blow-outs, no more being misunderstood when you meant well, ONLY a year of Kulo Tov.
Eclipse,
Thanks, I just got to read that. You’re like the ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????. Haven’t had that in a long time.
?????? ?????, may Hashem fulfill ?? ?????? ??? ???? in the coming year.
I think once a person forgives, the pain might fade into the background a little. But I’d say it happens after forgiveness, or at least letting go on a certain level. But because its something abstract/personal/situation-specific, I’m not sure theres one blanket answer.
Shopping-
Did your friend just cut off contact from one day to the next? I have no idea what happened, (and I apologize if this makes it worse,) but IME, sometimes people act funny in relationships because of outside factors or because they don’t have any better ways to deal with it. I believe someone once posted here “hurt people hurt people”. Not necessarily is every situation like that, maybe many are not, but could she have been hurt and then reacted as she did, or maybe from something else going on in her life?
Again, I have no idea what happened, but I’ve seen both sides enough times to know that usually people don’t specifically try to hurt anyone, usually its just a side effect of something else. Decide if you want the relationship or an apology and if you aren’t comfortable picking up the phone you can try sending an email or something, but if you ask directly, you probably have a better chance of getting a direct answer. Good luck!
Sorry for the rant. 🙂
Amein, thanks.
I agree with SanityIsOverrated: “When someone mentions that person’s name, and instead of thinking of how much they hurt me, I wonder how much hurt they have in their life to act like that.” I know I cut off ties with a someone I knew because that specific friendship required a lot of emotional energy (which was something I unfortunately wasn’t able to give her at that time). While it was definitely and abrupt end to a relationship, it was necessary as I had other priorities at that time that had to be met. I’m not sure how she took it as I haven’t heard a word from her since.
Shopping613: To answer your question – “Even if I would call (which Im not) would they answer??!??” It would never hurt to try. Being in the so-called “bad guy” position (though who are you to judge!)if this particular friend called me I would definitely answer. Not only would I answer, I would probably value our relationship even more if she called because it shows SHE still values the bond we share(d).
shopping- it sounds like your friend is going through a very hard time. try not to be insulted. people dont just wake up one morning and say they dont need friends unless some major trauma happened. i know this from personal experience. please, let her know youre there for her. if you have texting capabilities it would be a great idea to text her something like,”i hope everything is ok, im here if you need to talk.” but you should only do that if you want your relationship to continue.
if you are ready to give up your relationship with her, then just forget about her.
I’m honestly worried about this friend’s friend. She sounds like she’s using very twisted logic to cover for something else. Why does she allow family, but not friends? Why not move into the mountains, and have it just be Hashem? I would assume something serious is going on there. (BTW Torah is a guide for life. Life includes friends. I have yet to see a place where it says to hurt all your friends, because it will help your spirituality.)
In this situation, I would think it’s extremely important to let go of the anger. Because two possible explanations that jump out at me, say this girl is in danger. (look, I rhymed!)
1)Depressed people tend to push those close to them away. She may not appear to be so, but this is a big sign.
2)Abusive people tend to try to isolate their victims. Is someone in the family trying to isolate her?
I’m probably over-reacting, but even so. Understanding that something completely different is possible, can help forgiveness.
i agree with sanity. humans are created with a need for relationships. something major must have happened to this girl. if shopping is too hurt to call her, then shoppings friend should. please do this, your friend must be in so much pain! please call her, or just show up at her doorstep if you think she wont answer the phone. my friend did this to me when i was in pain and i am so grateful to her. i wouldnt be surprised if you found this girl cutting. please believe me, this girl has gone through something painful in her life. so, when you meet this person, be open with her. tell her you care, you feel her pain, you want to help her. tell her she is in your thoughts and prayers. if she opens up to you, just listen to her. let her cry on your shoulder and just be supportive. i know this sounds extreme, but i am 99% sure this girl is being abused. she needs help and Hashem wants you to be the shaliach to help her. i want to say more, but i gtg. good luck!
Shopping613 friend- It can be a personality thing. I know people who are afraid to face their loneliness, so they deny their need for friendship. Perhaps she feels so alone, that she needs to convince you (and herself) that it’s true. Before she saw you all the time. Now she doesn’t, and that in itself may be so hard to face. I’m sorry this hurt you so much. Sometimes people are so deep in their own pain, they don’t even realize how much they hurt others, or they convince themselves no-one gets hurt. She may be embarrassed about her family’s different minhagim, but it may be something else entirely. I would say she’s probably in denial.
So what can you do? Understand that there is a deep pain in her, that has nothing to do with you. Accept that she is who she is.
Shopping613- I’m still trying to figure out which parts are from you, and which are from your friend. Don’t wait for a phone call. For all you know, you’re friend is wishing you would call her because she’s too embarrassed or something. Never wait for people, when you can do yourself. (You can’t change how others act, only how you do)
Both of you- Don’t panic. Hashem takes everything into consideration. That you want to forgive is a huge step in the right direction. Rosh Hoshana isn’t a deadline. It’s not like forgiveness isn’t acceptable after Yom Kippur. Hashem knows your future choices as well. He takes it all into consideration.
Shopping’s friend: All I see here are flashing warning lights. That is NOT normal behavior and my heart goes out to her; I can’t even imagine what she is going through. Any female who says she doesn’t need friends and is pushing away her’s is most probably depressed(as SanityIsOverrated said). Especially is you’ve been friends with her before. I would suggest getting an experienced adult involved at this point as something isn’t adding up correctly.
Shopping: Hate to be blunt, and I’m not sure if I got the situation straight, but maybe get over your pride. Most people I know have a conscience and I bet your friend has been eating herself up over this, debating if what she is doing is right or not. Maybe don’t call her, but reach out to her in some way. Look, someone’s gotta make the first step…
@Shoppin613- Yay for calling! You should feel proud.
@sh613’s friend- I’m confused. Is she cutting or just talks about it?
Also, just because she’s in a sheltered environment, doesn’t mean she won’t think of doing it, or find out about it.
Whatever is going on with this girl, it sounds really bad for her. I wonder if she chose her loneliness, or didn’t know how social life works. (neither do I for that matter. That’s why I spend my life on the internet) So what can you do? Davening you know. Open your heart to see how she needs compassion, not judgement. Remember, Hashem wanted you to feel the rejection of a friend. (I don’t know why, but it is for your benefit) She was only His messenger. Now how will you respond to His test?
I remember when my friend called me erev yom kippur to ask for forgiveness. I hadn’t heard from her in months. She just upped and left without telling me why. We spoke then, and she seemed ok, telling me she hadn’t meant to hurt me, and did I forgive her. Then she never spoke to me again. I felt that she had called just to alleviate her own feelings of guilt. It’s been 4 years since then. Anytime I hear her name, it’s like an arrow to my heart. Understand, she had been my best friend. I have since learned she has Borderline Personality Disorder. It took me so long to let the anger go, but I’m glad I did. Having said all that, I hope you too can find the peace of mind to let her go.
Shopping613: ;)so so happy you did that! I really hope you hear back from her soon!
Shoppings friend: if this how your friend is and always was i suggest backing off at this point. But make sure she knows that you’ll be there for her whenever she may need you as it sounds like she is in a lot of pain.
Sanity: not sure if you were being sarcastic or not about your social skills..but at one point social media was the extent of my social life. I still remember signing in to one of my accounts after not having been there for a while and one of my friends asked me where I’ve gone. I very proudly told her that I went to get a life…maybe you should try that one day.
I was being sarcastic, but completely honest at the same time. I’ve tried to have a life, but gave up. There’s just too many humans around. Maybe one day I will, if they ever let me out of psychiatric treatment. Till then, social media beware!
wiy- i disagree with that. true forgiveness may be understanding that the person that hurt you has a mental disorder and although it is not her fault she hurt you, she didnt know what she was doing, that doesnt mean you need to be friends with her
I disagree with this. I don’t think saying something wasn’t someone’s fault is forgiving- that’s excusing. I think forgiving means recognizing that although it my have been their fault you don’t want them to get punished anymore for it.
Shopping613- I wasn’t talking about why we forgive. I was talking about what the word forgiveness means.
It’s more then that. forgiveness helps oneself to mature and think less one-sided. When filled with anger at a person or situation, it can cloud your own thinking. Take for example victims of child abuse. Many former victims can turn into abusers themselves with their anger. Others are so afraid of abuse occurring, that they stifle their children from leading a healthy life. Understanding what causes abuse and hurt, can lead to finding healthy ways to fight against it. Forgiveness is about letting go of your own feelings. It’s not about excusing someone else’s behavior. It’s about empowering yourself to no longer being a victim. As long as the situation bothers you, you’re still the victim.
SanityIsOverrated- what you’re talking about isn’t forgiveness either. It’s moving on. You can move on without forgiving as well by telling yourself that Hashem will see to punishing those who hurt you, and you no longer have to worry about it. It’s off your shoulders and onto Hashems.
Forgiveness is peace of mind that you push that person/idea/etc. out of your mind and try to come to terms it with yourself..
It’s inner peace b/c if you don’t you’re allowing someone to dwell in your mind without paying rent!!!
It’s one of the hardest things to do but once you’ve got there you’ll see it’s worth the battle!
onit- as I wrote in the post just before yours, it’s not necessary to forgive the other person in order to have that peace of mind. As long as you believe that Hashem will take care of the punishment, you can banish all thought of that person and what he did for you knowing that Hashem will handle it. It’s actually usually easier to let go and move on without forgiving. In each situation it’s important to speak to someone you respect whether or not you should forgive the person who hurt you. Forgiveness is a beautiful thing, but Hashem doesn’t force you to forgive by hounding you with bad thoughts until you do.
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