What is a Yeshiva Education Worth to You?

Thank you kiruvwife. I very much appreciate your kind words. The Netziv has an interesting essay on the Akeidah. He writes that Abraham had a dilemma as G-d was being inconsistent. On the one hand He commended that Abraham offer his son as a sacrifice. On the other hand, there is an issur in the Torah of “et bincha at titein laMolech,” that the Torah prohibits child sacrifice. Abraham, not hvaing a ready solution, relied on the 13th hermeneutic of R. Yishmael: “Vchein shnei ketuvim hamakchishim zeh at zeh ad sheyavo hakatuv hashilishi v’tachriah beineihem” when two verses in the Torah contradict one another, a third verse will resolve the contradiction. Thus Abraham did as he was told, and waited for the deus ex machina to resolve the Divinely created contradiction. I’m doing the same. On the one hand I’m obligated to do everything in my power to provide a torah education for my children. On the other, the same body of Halacha seemingly prohibits me from using all my skills to do so. I’ll continue exploring whatever avenues are apparent and G-d will have to do the rest. That resolution might take the form of my winning the lottery, or caming into some other cash windfall, it may come in the form of lowered tuition. It just might even come in the form of a heter from a well regarded posek to sing in a church on Sundays. I wouldn’t go to a non-Orthodox schul unless there was a halachik basis to allow me to do so. But I will explore every possibility, hoping G-d takes pity on me.

Not sending kids to yeshivos is not an option. Not. My pet peeve is that the amount of money that they charge is way more than it should be.

SJS, about your mother’s education,I don’t know how old your mother is. But I do know American-born women of my mother’s and aunts’ generation, we’re talking early 70s, who didn’t have a BY education, or an abbreviated Jewish education, and yes, they have more yiras shamayim in their little fingers than all their fancy female descendants combined.

But that was then, this is now. It’s pikuach nefesh for our girls to keep them in a strong Jewish environment. Just read Wendy Shalit’s books to see what they’re up against.

I’ll daven for you, you daven for me – may you have the physical and spiritual resources to raise your children to bring nachas to you, klal Yisrael and HKB”H and build a bayis neeman b’Yisrael.

Good question. But the real shanda is that the schools have no workable tuition schedule. I mean, it’s not like only a few families here and there have more than a couple of children. By and large most frum families have between 5 and 12 children in school at any given point in time.

Is it reasonable to put $120,000 on the tuition form? No way. So it is incumbent upon the schools to prepare for this situation as it is closer to the rule than the exception. Affordibility should not be an issue except in rare cases, otherwise, we have a terribly flawed system. From what I can see, it is rare that anyone finds yeshiva tuition affordable. This is ridiculous.

cantoresq:

Another possible solution:

If just one Kollel Bochur was told his child had to go to public school (and then go ahead with it), it might scare the rest into paying/raising realistic tuition, lowering the burden on the rest of us. The kollel bochur’s child will not be affected (as much as the “base” child) due to upbringing, background and values instilled by his/her parents. Within a few weeks, the parents will have raised the money. Continue for other parents and they will get the point.

Mrs. Tzippi will argue that the child will be lost in the outside world. I don’t believe that is true for a younger (5-8 year old) child, and if it is, make sure you have money (beg, borrow or sell yourself, live in a studio or with your parents) to pay a minimal tuition.

Everyone will yell at me, and they are all correct. However, it is a realistic solution that can be implemented by us, as opposed to expecting MOFES to become V’MOFES (V for Vouchers). Also note I don’t say full tuition, just minimal to cover expenses. The schools can help by cutting out trips, “sponsored by the PTA”, Shabbatons etc. which just raise expectations and force the school to raise for those who don’t have.

P.S. Someone just told me he paid $150 for his son to go on a trip to Lakewood for Shabbos. He said it was hard to afford, but he needed to do so because the child would feel left out otherwise due to him not joining the rest of the class. I told him that for that price, he could have had his son home for shabbos, and taken his child to Six Flags on sunday (assuming it was warm), and gone to Mincha in Lakewood for little over half the cost, and his class and yeshiva would have nothing to say (since he was off on sunday to “come home”).

The education may be worth it, but the extras are not worth a wooden nickel.

gavra-at-work, your ideas, while harsh, have merit. They do not however address the tuition issues vis-a-vis the more modern schools which are not populated by kollel families, but have exorbitant tuitions. There is something very wrong when providing our children with a firm grounding in a Torah based school of thought, becomes too expensive for all but the most wealthy.

GAW, I disagree that children from “stronger” homes will be able to hack it. I know people whose kids are in special programs in public and private schools, in more self-contained rooms even so not subject to the general atmosphere and it still kills them.

Where did I just read this story…of a (I think frum) Holocaust survivor (nebech, can’t judge) who decided to send his teenage son to a college in the Bible belt to give him the opportunity to stay strong among the goyim, as he himself had had to do as a young man. Disastrous.

Why is 39’s identify important or relevant, on this thread or any?

cantoresq: In those cases, they have extras over Charaidi yeshivas (Gyms, sports, better english, nicer building etc.) which accounts for much of the additional cost. It may be needed to lure in children who would otherwise go to public schoool.

Mrs. Tzippi: In that case, the father practicly abandoned his child. In my scenario the child would come home every day and be able to learn from his parents or a tutor. In addition, I can imagine the parents not raising the money within a couple of weeks. If they don’t try, then the child has the din of a Yasom and then different halachas apply (i.e. he becomes a ward of the community).

Jothar: Not a joke. It is true, and I imagine people have gone back to kollel to avoid tuition.

ames-probably meant to type identity

R’ Jothar–There was a friend of mine’s husband who was seriously considering the idea of quitting work and going to learn in kollel just for that reason. They make just enough money to not get a break in tuition, but then after they pay tuition are in trouble in certain areas financially. I told them to go for it, but they thought I was being facetious.

One of the main problems is accountability. As Squeak mentioned, most schools don’t show the books. You can ask, but then your kid won’t get into that school. They label themselves as a church so they are not required to file a 990 with the IRS.

Tuition + Mandatory Fees should not be close to ALL of someone’s expenses.

My suggestion was posted a while back, but the mods never approved it. I think it depends on which mod is active. Some mods will just delete my post without letting it through.

Jothar, I’m right, but squeak doesn’t like absolute statements.

yossiea, “IIRC” doesn’t cut it. Please provide a mekor. Additionally, even if your quote about a famine is correct, that would apparently be a pekuach nefesh issue not a financial issue.

IIRC

If I Recall Correctly