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Sparkly and Shopping – you are both making sweeping false generalizations about Americans and Israelis. Everything that each of you said about Americans only applies to some Americans and can apply to some Israelis as well, and the same with the things you said about Israelis.
There are many Americans who don’t believe in going to College and do believe in getting married young and there are also Americans who smoke. There are also many Americans who are very mature. In terms of the seminaries, I know a girl who attended a seminary that placed Shana Bet Americans with Shana Alef Israelis or American/Israelis, and the Americans had a very hard time because the Shana Alef Israelis were so much more immature than them and were at the stage they had been at a year before.
In any case, I just want to remind everybody that it is Loshon Hara to speak about groups of people within Am Yisrael. It is the Nine Days and hopefully, if we work on not speaking LH and increasing our Ahavas Yisrael, the Beis HaMikdash will be up before Tisha B’Av and we won’t have to fast this year!!!! So let’s get to work (myself included) and start thinking about good things to say about each other.
I think that each person here should write a post listing the maalehs of a group she does not belong to, and we will vote on the best post!
Boys here smke, your boys have internet. Everyone is struggling with something else. The boys here have never seen a television or a computer in their life.
I’m not trying to put down americans or isrealis, or say that all of them are more mature than the other. It’s just a known fact that a good bunch of american israelis are, up to the point where they will not put together americans and israeli girls of the same age. It’s a different lifestyle that makes people different in different. Americans are one up on israeli’s in many other places.
In any case, I am aware it is the 9 days. My large rant post was not about saying all charedi people don’t go to college, but guess what, a lot don’t. All I’m saying is that you don’t know what goes on over here and neither do I know what goes on there, although I lived in the US for a majority of my life.
Basically, don’t generalize people. Let everyone do what they want, you think college is important- than go. You think it’s going to ruin your ruchniyus- DON’T GO. You are ready to marry at 17- then do it! You want to wait-so WAIT!
Let everyone be themselves sparkly. I understand your reasons, I don’t agree with them, nor think they are fit for me or my friends-but if they are for you and your friends than WAIT, then do whatever it is you want/have to do. I don’t want to put anyone down chas vishalom.
But if my friend is ready to marry at 17, who are you to tell her she ISN’T? You don’t know her, her mentality, her maturity level, where she grew up, and she may have some different values than you-and that’s okay. As long as you accept that because we are a very diverse nation, we all choose different paths, it’s ok.
Rak Ahavah.
Shopping: “My large rant post was not about saying all charedi people don’t go to college, but guess what, a lot don’t”
I didn’t read that post (I don’t have time to read all the posts!) and I wasn’t commenting on that. I wouldn’t have a problem with that. Talking about what Chareidim do or don’t do is not (necessarily) a problem since you are talking about a hashkafa, and it is part of the hashkafa to try to avoid college.
I was talking about the generalizations of Americans and Israelis. When I mentioned college, I was referring to Sparkly’s comment that Americans do go to college, since there are plenty of Americans who are against college.
I also don’t agree with your comments that boys in Israel have never seen a television or a computer. There are plenty of boys in Israel who have seen a television or a computer, and there are plenty of Americans who haven’t. It has no connection to being American or Israeli – it has to do with how Yeshivish you are. Just for the record, I happen to know many more people in EY with computers than in the US! (which has to do with who I know in each country, but it proves that you have to be careful with generalizations)
I realize that both yours and Sparkly’s comments were probably in response to each other’s posts that I hadn’t read, but if you read the posts by themselves, it does sound like a comparison of Americans and Israelis, so I think it is kidai to be careful about making these types of comments.
Bottom line though in terms of the topic at hand is that as you put it: everyone is ready to get married at a different age and it is very closed-minded for anyone to say that there is only one right way to do things. What age someone is ready to get married at is dependent on many factors, and everyone is different, and no one should be judging others!
I am the last person to generalize, I’m not at all saying that everyone here is like _____ and everyone there is like ____. It’s more about in the USA there aren’t many kids whom have never seen a television or a computer, and in Israel there exists a large community of such people. Of course it’s not everyone, and not the majority-but compared to the ammount of such people in the US the idea of someone NOT knowing is just assosiated with israelis which makes sense again because although not nearly everyone here is like that, I’m sure you can agree there are many more people here than in the US.
There are so many people like that compared to the US to the point where people in the US such as sparkly find it extremely hard to see the reasoning or the existence of a group of people that large. It just sounds so foreign.
So I’m not trying to buy into stereotypes, I’m just trying to explain why these stereotypes exist. I was just trying to explain to her that there are people like that and it’s okay.
Shopping, I realize that you were not trying to generalize, and you just think that this is a fact, but having lived in both the US and Israel for many years, I can tell you that it is not true. Sparkly and many others think that way because they are not part of the Yeshivish community in the US. I know many more people in Israel who have computers than in the US. Almost no one I know in the US has a computer.
Shopping, I do realize that in any case, you were just responding to Sparkly and your point was not to generalize but to defend the way that people in EY do things. I just think that it’s important to point out that many of things you mentioned apply to Yeshivish Americans as well and do not have to do with being Israeli but rather, with being Yeshivish (or Chassidish for that matter).
I do agree with your bottom line different communities have different ways of doing things and people should be respectful of that and of the fact that someone growing up in one type of community will be ready to get married at a different age than someone from a different type of community.
Sparkly – not in Lakewood.
I’m talking about the Yeshiva area.
That’s interesting – I know very few people in Lakewood who have computers, but the few who do davka do have internet. What do you mean by computers without internet – do you mean that they don’t have internet at all or do you mean that they have Yeshivanet or a filter?
Sparkly – 1. If they have filters, then that’s called having internet.
2. If it’s a more modern place, then they are not Yeshivish. I was talking about Yeshivish people. It doesn’t make sense to compare the Yeshivish people in EY to the non-Yeshivish people in the US. The point is that the Yeshivish people in the US are similar to the Yeshivish people in EY
lilmod ulelamaid: Amen!
Wow I totally wish that I could delete some of my posts from another topic now that I think about it. It’s different when one makes these things public. Then again, there are healing benefits of communicating with each other as well. Either way, yes I appreciate you for the reminder that we are in the nine days and it helps to keep that in mind.
Thanks again.
lightbrite: thanks! good to know I accomplished s/t by being in the CR.
It is definitely true that there are healing benefits of discussing things with others (although one should try to fulfill the conditions of the Chafetz Chaim as much as possible by speaking to someone who will listen w/o passing judgment on the other person or adding L”H,etc.), and in those situation, it is muttar. However, when someone posts things online for the whole world to see, I don’t think there is any heter.
Additionally, something that might be muttar in ordinary circumstances might be assur online due to the fact that you have such a wide range of possible “listeners.” Something that might be okay when said to someone who shares your worldview and understands what you mean might become L”H if someone might be reading it who might understand it differently and negatively.
It is always important to remember that not-religious Jews and non-Jews might be reading what we write and might understand something differently than the way we meant it.
In terms of your previous posts, maybe you can ask the moderator to delete if you think there may be a LH issue. Kidai to ask. Definitely a big zchus for Am Yisrael during the Nine Days if it really can be done!!!
Sparkly – I’m sure that there are things that have gotten past them. It’s hard to monitor %100, especially since hilchos lashon hara can be very complicated, and on such a site, where the purpose is discussing issues in the Frum world, it can be very difficult to differentiate b/w LH and non-LH.
Bottom line, everyone has to take achrayus and not leave things up to the moderators.
Agreed! Amen!
Sparkly – I hope that when I’m married, I won’t spend time this way!! 🙂
What’s wrong with “spending time this way”?
Agrred- lilmod
Bezrat Hashem bishaah tovah! For me, you, and sparkly. Who knows, we might be hearing engagements announcments soon.
Shopping613 – amen to the right guy:) i dont know if ill be on here when i get married because ill have a husband, kids and pharmacy to take care of h’h.
meno – we dont earn anything out of it. besides for knowing about random stuff. im not learning science or math or Torah from being on here.
Right on Sparkly! And it’s not good for Shalom Bayis or Chinuch – when you’re married, you should be spending time with your husband and kids, not “talking” to strangers on-line !!!
Getting married and having kid don’t come simultaneously unless you are expecting at the wedding. As far as running a pharmacy right out of college is highly unlikely. Independent pharmacies require capital which you wouldn’t be able to get due to your and your husband’s college loans.
Abba_s “Getting married and having kid don’t come simultaneously unless you are expecting at the wedding.”
That’s not true if you marry someone who already has kids from a previous marriage or if you adopt right after you get married.
“Independent pharmacies require capital which you wouldn’t be able to get due to your and your husband’s college loans.”
The point is that she’ll be busy with parnassah. If her goal is to open her own pharmacy eventually, that includes doing the things she needs to do in order to get there. Either way, she is referring to Parnassah hishtadlus, so the specifics are irrelevant.
lilmod, you are a girl? Lol, and all this time I was positive you were a boy….
The best time to get married is when there’s a hall available….
When you’re talking about young people getting married typically it’s chassidish people who typically don’t get degrees(there are exceptions like myself) so there fore they have the ability to start earlier because they have nothing holding them back as they say in Yiddish (for those who understand ) ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????
Shopping613 🙂 A lot of people think that! or at least they would, but since most people I have contact with can see or hear me, they realize I am a girl.
Sadgirlygirl: The best time to get married is when there’s a hall available.
I think the right Chosson is a little more important…. Technically, you can get married w/o a hall, but it’s not a good idea to marry the wrong guy
Sadgirly: In Israel American israeli’s can get married between 18-23. At this point we aren’t american nor israeli so it’s just like “whatever goes!”
Sparkly – that is a major generalization which is not true. There are hundreds of chassidish girls in Boro Park and Williamsburg getting degrees every year. Look at the TTI and Sara Schenirer classrooms and you will see them full of typical chassidish girls. You may argue that they’re not in real college, but their degrees are legally just as accredited as Harvard’s. Maybe *some* chassidish girls getting degrees are otd or on their way, but following that logic, *some* chassidish girls who eat gefilte fish every Shabbos are either otd on their way too.
Sparkly Why would you say that most girls getting their degrees are otd. As gofish has stated there are alot of programs for them tti /sora shenirer and even some seminaries offer BA and touro collge itself has separate classes for men and women. The world isn’t black and white either you dorm in a mixed university and party and get drunk with guys or you have no degree and kollel lifestyle. Hashem gave us kosher ways to get a degree like that we can still keep our morals and halachos and still be able to earn a living and marry off our kids and make yuntif.
Sparkly, do you know what accredited means? We don’t get to decide who is qualified and who isn’t. There is an official board which accredits colleges, and yes, these places meet all their qualifications.
Sarah Schenirer students get their degrees from Mercy College. TTI from the University of Texas and others.
They are just as accredited as Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc. They are not as prestigious, but they are accredited.
I know a few people with Thomas Edison degrees (gotten through Maalot, with 30 credits from seminary and 90 credits in one year) who have gone to Columbia. They all said they were well prepared and in some ways ahead of many of their classmates.
Sparkly yes girls that get BA in these programs have been accepted to LIU/NYU and such type of places…and when you say “non hewish colleges with us” you’re going to a not jewish college? And who is “us”?
Sigh. Sparkly, they worked really, really hard, took a lot of courses each semester, and were constantly writing papers and doing exams. Some girls literally woke up, went to classes, and did schoolwork until their eyes closed on them. You cannot get your BA without 120 credits, and they had just as many credits as every college graduate. How do I know? I went there myself. And got accepted to a prestigious graduate school, straight from Maalot. As did some of my friends and many other Maalot graduates I know. Maalot itself isn’t a college, but they are a partner with Thomas Edison State University, which is accredited 100%. Our professors all got their Phds from top ranking universities, and I got a solid, quality education. What I said about the girls who went to Columbia, I heard first hand from those girls.
Feel free not to believe me. Just because you haven’t heard of it or it doesn’t fit into some preconceived notions, does not mean it isn’t true.
You don’t really learn much in any American college anyhow. In America, for most or many fields, it’s only in graduate school that you really learn about your field.
Sparkly, that doesn’t contradict what I wrote – I wrote most or many. It’s also not true for computers or accounting, but it is true for many fields.
No. And please note that I did not specify which Maalot I went to. There is more than one.
“also your ONLY talking this way since you went there.” -That, my dear, is an ad hominem attack, which is a logical fallacy. Try again.
(Perhaps a course in Rhetoric 101 or joining the debate team next semester would be helpful.)
Sparkly – I never claimed that I was listing all of them!!
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