What if landlord insists on showing the house on shabbos?

Depends what your lease says, you need to obey the terms of the lease

Eat lunch somewhere else. It’s the landlord’s right and there is no Chillul Shabbos involved.

PBA

It depends on the lease, There might be a clause that the landlord in the final month of the lease has the right to show the apartment

usually though the landlord cannot insist to be allowed to show an apartmenet when people are living there unless there is some clause in the lease

Make the birthday party somewhere else.

It depends on the lease, There might be a clause that the landlord in the final month of the lease has the right to show the apartment

Of course the landlord has the right to show it. But that doesn’t mean any time of day or night. You’re still paying rent and living there, and are obviously entitled to set hours that you aren’t showing it.

Let them in, give them a seat, offer some cholent. Try to be mekarev them.

Popa’s got a horrible camera.

Sam2, you are wrong.

The landlord does not have the right to enter at any time. You are paying rent and it is your home.

You do have to give them an acceptable alternate time. I made it clear to my last landlord that Friday afternoon and Shabbos and naptimes for my baby were not okay. If they say they are only available Saturday, suggest a time on Motzei Shabbos after you’ve cleaned up. Nobody is working then. I have never been taken up on this, they’d rather come Sunday.

I also forbade pictures. Measuring the room is one thing. Pictures that could be shared anywhere is another. I never took pictures of an apt I was considering either. It’s rude to the people who live there.

As long as you are nice about it, it will be fine.

PBA: I dunno. I’ve seen leases with the clause that as long as there is 24-hour notice, he can show the apartment during any daytime hours during the final month/2 months of the lease. Hopefully he’ll respect your wishes re Shabbos/the birthday party, but depending on the lease it could very well be his right.

There are very few jurisdictions that don’t regulate residential leases, so most provisions of your lease are subject to overriding law anyway.

I would definitely, as a tenant, read that as including a reasonability clause. For example, you can’t set up shop in my apartment every day, all day, for the last two months. No contract can possibly include every eventuality, and I can’t imagine any court would read that literally.

Whats the moral of this question?

Stand up for your religious principles and rights.

Newbee: Why is Goyim not keeping Shabbos a Zilzul of Shabbos?

Newbee: Why is Goyim not keeping Shabbos a Zilzul of Shabbos?

I assumed he was saying it is zilzul shabbos to have it going on in your house, which it is.

I just remembered. I used to tell them, “oh, that won’t work, I’m having company at that time.” And then suggest some other time, like sunday morning at 11.

Again it depends what the lease says.

Well, partially.

Firstly, if the lease says something too landlord-favorable, there is likely a local law that overrides it. Google “tenant rights [name of town].”

Second, you can’t take the lease language too literally, or it becomes absurd. Suppose it says:

Right of Entry. The Lessor shall have the right to enter the premises at any time, upon notice, to make all repairs, to inspect the premises, and to show the premises to prospective tenants and purchasers.

And suppose there is no local tenant law. So that means the landlord can send you an email that he’s going to show the apartment to a string of people for the next month 24/7 and will be staying in your apartment continuously for that time. (Don’t worry, he won’t sit on your couch.)

Right?

Of course not. No court in the world would read the contract that literally, and a contract means only so much as a court would legally enforce. There’s an obvious assumed interpretation that there is a reasonability aspect, and it’s quite reasonable to tell the landlord “I’m eating dinner with my family during that time, can you come a few hours later; my baby is napping during that time; I’m napping during that time; it’s too late at night; you’ve been in here for half an hour already I need you to leave; etc”.

ALWAYS read a lease before signing one and if you cant understand the legalize , get someone who CAN read it and explain it to you

Good luck negotiating the terms of a residential lease. Best you can do is probably to just change the terms you don’t like before you sign and hope they don’t notice. BTDT; no idea what a court would do.

What did you change?

This provision.

Exactly.

Most residential leases are basically standard and I do find it hard to belive the landlord demanded entry without notice, I suspect this might be a month to month or illegal apartment where the landlord was trying to bully the tenant

Don’t wish for a frum.landlord as you might be sorry. My in-laws lived in a two family house and the frum landlord would “accidentally” turn then their heat down erev Shabbos and then say he couldn’t raise the heat because it was Shabbos.

I have a frum landlord. They’re great. They live upstairs.

DY, all I did was point out to the person who commented that they wouldn’t have a problem if their landlord was frum that being frum unfortunately is not a guarantee of being a mentch

” all I did was point out to the person who commented that they wouldn’t have a problem if their landlord was frum that being frum unfortunately is not a guarantee of being a mentch”

No, that is not what you said. You said “do not wish for a frum landlord”

Which means categorically.

I get why to avoid frum landlords, Its not the frum thats a problem. If you get a normal landlord, its basically a business transaction. However working with a frum landlord there is sort of doing business with family. Its generally not a good idea to do business with family. I personally prefer to do business with total strangers and not family in case something goes sour you dont have bigger issues.

a few observations from posts made by others………..

A frum landlord.

The landlord may be frum, but the Real Estate agent/apartment manager/super may not be. Often the landlord does not show the apartment, these surrogates/agents do.

Standard lease…

The days of walking into the stationery store and purchasing a ‘standard’ residential lease for 50 cents are long gone. There are many ‘standard’ leases on the internet as well as some used by local Boards of Realtors, but there is really no such thing as a standard lease. Most leases are custom, or edited versions of leases obtained elsewhere over time.

Real Estate and tenant law varies by jurisdiction. Especially as pertains to small buildings 2-3 family homes or less than 6 unit buildings, and if the owner lives in the building.

Be proactive, if you know you are not planning to renew your lease, a reason that your apartment will be shown, send your landlord a certified letter by the required notice date in your lease and offer a general set of times when showing are most convenient for you. It makes it easier for the landlord to know that Tuesdays and Wednesdays from 7-8 PM and Sundays from 1-3 PM are convenient for you so he can offer that to the prospective tenant, rather than have to go back and forth between multiple parties to arrange showings.

A lot depends on where the apartment is. For example if it’s in NYC the tenant is in the right to deny access if he wants. If the apartment is illegal the landlord can’t even go to court.( this should apply everywhere. If the apartment is illegal the tenant may not have to pay rent and the landlord can’t evict them either.

My advice is change the lock on the deadbolt so no one can come in without the tenants permission. A new deadbolt cost under $20.00 and you can look on U tube if you don’t know how to replace one.

Is posting advice here “legal advice”? Are you our lawyer?

No, I am not your lawyer. But the post telling the tenant to change the lock to bar entry by the landlord could be considered giving legal advice.

I simply warn non-attorneys not to render legal advice, the state laws are very strict on this practice.

I often post with disclaimers that laws vary by jurisdiction. I advise consulting an attorney in your jurisdiction and checking with government authorities for the local rules/regulations.

Self help can be dangerous and/or costly.

e.g. You have changed the lock without permission and have not given the super/landlord/agent a working key. You and the family are away for Pesach. Your toilet is leaking damaging the apartment below (or more units). The landlord has to break down your door to get in. Not only will you be liable for his costs to fix/replace entry, but you may have been contributory negligent in the damage to other apartments because entry was delayed. Landlord arrived on scene with key that worked when you let the apartment, now he has to go get tools and or labor to break down the door while the leak continues to cause damage.

My advice always tells to to do the equivalent of “consult your LOR” in this case Locally admitted attorney.

I am not a lawyer and you are correct, the tenant should contact an attorney licensed in his state before using any of this advice provided here. I am assuming the tenant plans on vacating the apartment soon so the threat of eviction does not apply as at least in NYC you need to give the tenant 30 days notice plus the month of the court hearing the landlord can’t accept rent for that month. As far as the landlord getting tools to break down the door, the burden of proof is on the landlord a) to proof there was a leak that started prior to the Sabbath, b) proof that tenant replaced the lock c) proof that breaking the door down was the most efficient way. While the landlord is holding the tenant’s security deposit, the tenant can sue the landlord in housing or small claims court to get back the deposit and that is when the burden of proof is on the landlord. Unless the landlord repairs the door immediately he is going to get a building code violation for the broken door and will be liable for the tenants losses should anyone steal anything, also he can be arrested if the police don’t believe him (that he is the landlord)so breaking the door down may not be the best way resolve the matter. If the landlord or his agent has the keys to the tenants apartment and there is a rash of robberies the landlord maybe liable. There was a college who misplaced the master keys to the dorms and and it’s costing the school $500 thousand to replace all the locks.

The way the question was posed was does the landlord have the right to show the apartment not does the landlord have the right to access the apartment for repairs? Usually if there is a leak the tenant and or landlord will knock on the door say there is a leak in the apartment below and under the sinks and the bath tub to see that they are working properly. I tend to doubt he will call a plumber to work on the weekend when labor is time and a half. If there is a leak he may just shut off the water to that fixture and have them come during the.

There is a difference if the landlord want to see if there is a leak or showing the apartment. I don’t think the landlord would break the door in front of a prospective tenant as it may give the tenant the wrong impression as to what type of landlord he is.

Abba_S

I was in no way suggesting that a landlord would break a door down to show an occupied apartment to a prospective tenant. I was specifically giving an example of the downside risk of changing the lock without permission and not supplying the landlord with a working key.

Yes, landlords are responsible to keep apartment keys secure and may be liable for damages if they do not. The example of the leak I posted in no way suggested a Shabbos repair had to be made at weekend labor rates. I posted a situation where the tenants were away for Pesach, it could have been a 2 week summer vacation…the landlord needs access to make the repairs and is entitled to have a working key…in some places by law, in most according to the lease.

As for your suggested items that must be proved by the landlord: A..no need to prove when the leak started, merely that damage is being done to another unit and the landlord’s key doesn’t fit a lock that the landlord didn’t install. B…if the landlord’s key doesn’t fit the lock, the legal concept of Res ipsa loquitor (the thing speaks for itself) applies. The tenant has access and the landlord is denied, therefore the tenant or his/her agent changed the lock without permission and/or supplying the landlord with a new key. A stranger doesn’t just come around changing a landlord’s lock and giving the tenant a key. C…landlord doesn’t have to prove breaking down the door was the most efficient way, merely expedient. Every minute of delay more damage is being done by the leak. Calling and waiting for a locksmith might effect a less costly repair to the door, but a more costly repair to leak damage. The courts will merely decide if the method used by the landlord was reasonable under the circumstances. Reasonable, doesn’t mean cheapest, most efficient or best.

I’ve been a landlord for more than 36 years (both residential and commercial), sometimes one has to pay overtime for timely repairs. Not all plumbers charge extra on Shabbos, most I’ve used do on Sundays.

It’s not all about money. It is possible for landlords and tenants to have a harmonious relationship.