What if I don't want to buy back the chometz from the goy?

There is usually a contract that forces you to take the chometz back or there are penalties

Ubiquitin – According to the way you present the deal, it would seem (to me) that when the Goy decides not to keep the Chametz, it turns out never to have been his in the first place. How does this circumvent the ??????? of ?? ???? ??? ????, and why isn’t this ??? ???? ???? ?????

I am not familiar with the details of the transaction, but one rav told me that we want the transaction to be in the goy’s favor. I assume it’s because we want him to be sincere.

You don’t have much of a choice. You appointed the Rav your shliach to conduct the transaction for you and unless you stop his shlichus whatever the Rav does you will have to live with. Unless of course you don’t appoint a shliach in which case I wish you happy negotiating. The way it was explained to me, specific terms of the sale are not finalized before Yom Tov only the framework of the sale.

I believe that a Rav I used to use to sell my chametz structured it as a down payment, with a balloon payment due after Pesach ended. If the balloon payment wasn’t made, the chametz would revert back to the original owners – not retroactively, as that would be a problem.

Since this was the contract, the Rav isn’t buying it back for you, it’s going back because the contract stipulates that. Since you authorized the original contract, you can’t change it.

A bigger question might be if you found chametz over Pesach. Let’s say you sold all chametz in your home to a non-Jew. Then, you find something that you missed while cleaning – let’s say a cookie was found inside a cabinet. How can you burn it? It doesn’t belong to you, it belongs to the non-Jew that you sold it to!

Joseph

Again the way it works (at least in one place I know of) there is no “buying back” the chometz is sold to the guy forever but with a built in clause that allows him to opt out after x number days which would return the chometz for now on to original owners. There is no clause that allows for the seller to force the goy to keep the chometz if he chooses not to go through with it.

Joseph: He doesn’t purchase it back. That’s not how it works. The analogy to a mortgage on a house is accurate. If you default, the bank takes the house back. All the bank can tell you is “pay up or give back the house”. They can’t force you to keep the house and pay for it. The same thing is here. It’s the Goy’s Chametz and he owes you money. You can’t force him to pay that money. What you can do, though, which is what we all do, is to tell him “either pay full price or give back the Chametz”.

A bigger question might be if you found chametz over Pesach. Let’s say you sold all chametz in your home to a non-Jew. Then, you find something that you missed while cleaning – let’s say a cookie was found inside a cabinet. How can you burn it? It doesn’t belong to you, it belongs to the non-Jew that you sold it to!

The goy is not makpid (doesn’t mind) if I burn one of his cookies. If a person doesn’t mind if you eat his food (and you know this for certain), the halacha says you are allowed to eat it. The same would apply here.

But some say you cannot burn the cookie, but rather take a stick and push it into the goy’s section.

I assume the OP doesn’t have any single malts 🙂

What is kul chamira, please?

Also… Unless it’s chol hamoed (and even then I still don’t know if it is permissible), isn’t is assur to start a fire on Pesach to burn food in general?

LB, good question.

If you find the chometz on Yomtov, you are supposed to cover it and wait until Chol hamoed to burn it. That is, if you hold that you are supposed to burn it. There may be opinions that you are not allowed to (since it was sold to the goy).

There are definitely opinions that you do burn it even though it was sold to a goy. I was at someone’s house on Pesach who found chometz. He looked up the halacha and reached the conclusion that he was supposed to burn it. I believe this was based on a psak from Rav Elyashiv. And this was despite the fact that it was chometz that had been in a cupboard that was sold to a goy (someone accidentally took a magazine out of the cupboard and there was chometz in it).

However, there may be different opinions, so you should probably ask a sheilah if it happens to you, c”v.

“I told my goy he can keep the chometz this year and pay me the fair market value. ”

He is usually told that every year. The question is what did he say.

“You are raising a good point”

He isnt. Multiple people explained why it doesnt work that way.

Joseph
Again,
“Exactly! Which is why I told him he can have the Cheerios, etc and give me the cash.”

This isnt your chiduish, he is generally told that. However if he doesnt want to go through with it you cant force him, see Sam2’s detailed explanation above

“A contract is a contract. I’m simply holding him up to keeping his end of our bargain.”

Have you read the contract?

Smerel

for themost part the blios arent sold as they arent worth a shava perutah. (Where Ive sold my chometz theyve given as a matona)

Youre comment though raises the Misplaced concern Joseph has.

“Have fun getting this all together to give to him.”
Im not sure what you eman by that. when the Goy is offered to (As joseph said, and is in fact done) “he can keep the chometz this year and pay me the fair market value.”
If the Goy accepts Im certain (or at least hope) youd be happy to gathter up your chometz and give it to him in echange for the fair market value.

“You are raising a good point”

“He isnt. Multiple people explained why it doesnt work that way.”

The fact that there are answers doesn’t mean it’s not a good question.

And it doesn’t hurt to be polite.

Ubiquitin – he might not consider the opinions of anonymous posters in the CR to be valid answers to his question. Which is why I suggested he look into the matter himself.

In any case, the main issue is what I wrote above: “It doesn’t hurt to be polite”. This is especially true when you are disagreeing with someone. You should always try to do it in a nice way. If you can make a point in a nice way or in a mean way, why not do it in a nice way?

Don’t you think the CR would be a much nicer place if people tried harder to be polite to each other?

Everything else aside… Isn’t it a blessing of its own that Joseph is even in a position to claim that he can manage perfectly fine without getting the chometz back after Pesach?

In other words, whereas some Jews in certain areas may need and want their chometz back, because finding kosher foods is difficult, Joseph would be able to take the money and go buy new food without further ado.

So that is pretty cool, in my humble opinion, that Joseph is living in a kosher foods abundant community. From what I have read and heard about some out of town places, people have to drive far out just to find a kosher aisle somewhere, and sometimes rely on buying food online.

So yay.

Okay now back to your regular programming 🙂

I just saw somewhere else a Non Jew who purchased the Chametz in Williamsburg showed up at someone’s house with a van wanted to take his Chametz that he purchased. he had to be persuaded not to do so

The rule is well known, שוה כסף ככסף. He has Chametz in your domain and says you should keep it. In Bava Kama 46b we find the Gemara quoting the saying that if someone owes you money take whatever he offers for soon even that won’t be available.

As the Rishonim there point out, usually we don’t allow payment in such form since you received money and should therefore be courteous enough to return money. In this case however, obviously accepting the Chametz as value is part of the deal.

ZD
Just saw that story. Now that makes me very uncomfortable (although note it is the exact opposite of Joseph’s point).

I dont understand why they stopped him from taking his chometz. The only reason I cna think of is they were concerned that he wouldnt actually be able/willing to pay the potentially thousands of dollars he’d owe. Though that makes me more uncomfortable.

Though it should be noted I imagine the sale is binding (halachicly and legally) even if there is no conceivable way the guy could pay for it.

First of all, I am not going to pretend to know the halacha, but a goy is obviously not bound by halacha. In Florida, and I suspect NY as well, a contract that says Person A will pay person B “fair market value” is not enforceable, unless it permits someone (besides a judge, for example an arbitrator) to set that value if the parties do not agree because price is a material term that cannot be left to a judge/jury to fill in. So even if the contract says that, you cannot enforce it. Perhaps the Goy can because maybe halacha recognizes such a deal, and the Jew is bound by halacha, but at least in Florida, it cannot be enforced.

So the practical answer to Joseph’s question (at least in Florida) is that even if the contract said that, and a Jew had to comply with Halacha and honor such an election by the Goy, it is unenforceable in a Fl court.

I do not know how rabbis structure these deals, but the common sense way would be similar to what is referenced above (ie a mortgage). You sell the Goy your chametz for 100,000 but he only makes monthly payments, and the first payment is due in 10 days (or 8). Upon failure to make the payment after pesach, there is a default, and the property goes back immediately to the Jew. The end. In that scenario, the jew cannot insist the Goy pay anything, as the contract provides that the sole remedy on default is a return of the property (collateral). On the other hand, the Goy has the right to pay and keep the property.

There are many real loans that are handled in this way, so to say its a mockery because the jews only remedy is the collateral is not accurate.