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Avram in MD: Based on your “handle” I would think you live in Maryland. So it is possible you don’t know what Hatzaloh has available in both Borough Park and Flatbush. From first hand experience (once for myself and once for my son) phone calls were placed to Hatzaloh around 2:00 AM. Both times the response was in less than 3 minutes.
I personally know Hatzaloh members who specifically stay awake so they can respond to these “middle of the night calls”.
Health: Hatzaloh doesn’t have trained dispatchers? Why are you spreading misinformation? Dispatchers are Hatzaloh EMT’s who have taken on the extra duties to be a dispatcher.
2scents -“Being cold is not a criteria for not doing CPR, I cannot post links but you can do a quick google, especially not under the New York State BLS protocols under which EN operate.
The other signs of certain death, take time to set in.”You are technically correct, but I’m assuming that poster is Not a medical professional!
These are the protocols from NYC EMS:
When are the circumstances that you don’t have to resuscitate:
“Extreme dependent lividity;
Rigor mortis;
Tissue decomposition;
Obvious mortal injury; or
A valid Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order and/or MOLST is present.”He should have wrote this – Maybe EN came and found Rigor mortis;
Tissue decomposition; Obvious mortal injury; or
A valid Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order and/or MOLST and realized there wasn’t much to do. Maybe Hatzalah still performed CPR, while EN thought there was no point!iacisrmma -“Health: Hatzaloh doesn’t have trained dispatchers? Dispatchers are Hatzaloh EMT’s who have taken on the extra duties to be a dispatcher. Why are you spreading misinformation?”
Actually I’m not! But you are! Being an EMT doesn’t make you an EMS dispatcher.
But I’m sorry to burst your bubble!Correct. I don’t know the protocol. Thanks for pointing it out. I doubt a woman who ran out of a wedding in a gown would just stand by and not do CPR, unless there was some reason they deemed pointless.
Health: Who said anything about Hatzaloh dispatchers being EMS dispatchers? Hatzaloh has their own dispatchers; they are not tied to the EMS system.
And what are EMS dispatchers trained in that that Hatzaloh members are not?
Health: here are the requirements to be an EMS dispatcher:
Education and Experience Requirements
You must have a four-year high school diploma or its educational equivalent from an accredited organization.
You must have two years of experience in one of the following categories. This experience must have happened in the last five years.Get Experience Categories
Medical Requirement: You will be examined to determine whether you can perform the essential functions of the position of Fire Alarm Dispatcher.Drug Screening Requirement: You must pass a drug screening in order to be appointed.
Residency Requirement Advisory: Any person employed as a Fire Alarm Dispatcher must be a resident of the City of New York or of Nassau, Westchester, Suffolk, Orange, Rockland or Putnam counties. English Requirement: You must be able to understand and be understood in English.
Proof of Identity: Under the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, you must be able to prove your identity and your right to obtain employment in the United States prior to employment with the City of New York.
Doesn’t even state they have to be an EMT.
iacisrmma -“Health: Who said anything about Hatzaloh dispatchers being EMS dispatchers? Hatzaloh has their own dispatchers; they are not tied to the EMS system”
“Doesn’t even state they have to be an EMT”You didn’t even begin to understand my previous post! Actually, your quite funny 😁.
Look I don’t want to argue with you, but obviously you don’t know anything about EMS!
There’s such a thing in this world called an EMS dispatcher. It has nothing to do with NYC EMS.
That’s why you don’t need to be an EMT to take EMS dispatch training!In my out of NYC town, 911 calls are handled either by the volunteer fire department or the county police. Their response time is under 5 minutes.
The bottom line is: a women dead. Everybody who is out of politics understands why. No need of all comments
Ps: if en isn’t endorsed by every local known rav; there must be a reasonEach area is different, besides its the EMS that one wants not the police. Most out of NYC areas are having massive issues with basic coverage and heavily rely on mutual aide.
health, it is exceptionally uncommon for a middle age frum woman to have advanced directives. other signs are usually associated with long downtime’s which does not seem to have been the case.
Not sure how this became a discussion about dispatchers, a lot of 911 call centers do not have EMDs answering the phones, yet they usually have some sort of training. Do you think that Hatzalah that has a significant call volume on a daily basis does not provide training for its dispatchers?
This turned into a discussion about dispatchers because, IMHO, “Health” stated that Hatzaloh dispatchers are not “qualified” while EMS dispatchers are . Since this thread started about a call in Borough Park and that 911 was called we have to talk about NYC EMS, not EMS in other city and states. From post 1291276: “That’s when you call EMS! Hatzolah doesn’t have trained dispatchers.” I felt that this was misinformation as Hatzaoloh dispatchers here in NYC are trained not only as EMT’s but also as dispatchers.
Studies here in NYC have repeatedly shown that Hatzaloh responds faster than NYC EMS.
yup too much time here
2scents -“yet they usually have some sort of training.”
You figured it out – I was talking about EMD training!
2scents -“health, it is exceptionally uncommon for a middle age frum woman to have advanced directives. other signs are usually associated with long downtime’s which does not seem to have been the case”
You’re correct about the first part, but about the second part, only if you were there can you make that determination. I wasn’t & I don’t think you were!
iacisrmma -“Since this thread started about a call in Borough Park and that 911 was called we have to talk about NYC EMS, not EMS in other city and states. From post 1291276: “That’s when you call EMS! Hatzolah doesn’t have trained dispatchers.””
Basically what you did was to put words in my mouth, so you could criticize me and defend your beloved Hatzolah!
To e/o else, I was commenting on someone’s post.“I felt that this was misinformation as Hatzaoloh dispatchers here in NYC are trained not only as EMT’s but also as dispatchers.”
I’m sorry; but you’ll have to do better than that. I spoke the truth, but you’re trying very hard to manipulate the readers!
“Studies here in NYC have repeatedly shown that Hatzaloh responds faster than NYC EMS.”
Can you cite any such study?
(im not disputing your conclusion it is probably true, I just wasnt aware of any such study done, let alone “repeatedly” done)
What I do wonder is if patients brought in by hatzalah have a higher survival rate than those brought in by say FDNY. Again I doubt any such study was done. Though this time, I doubt there is a difference.
Ive spoken to several Hatzalah bigwigs, most said the primary benefit from hatzalah is one of comfort, ie many in our community feel more comfortable having unzereh take care of them.(Of course htis is the exact same argument made by Ezras Nashim)
Kotlorism -“We as a community need to stop being so gullible, especially when it comes to life and death”
I agree with this statement, but your implication is wrong.
When the Frum community realized that NYC had a problem with EMS response time, they started Hatzolah. This was not the solution!
Being that I’m not PC, and most people in the Frum community are, there’s No point in going into details.
I’m willing to take over the Frum communities EMS systems, but not for free!Kotlorism,
Thank you for the extra chizuk for me to never sign up for Facebook or other similar social media platforms.
Kotlorism,
Your story makes no sense. And I’m pinning it on you as your story because you decided to post it on the CR with admittedly no idea of the facts. At first, you write (bracketed statements and bold are mine):
They [the Ezras Nashim volunteers] kept on reassuring her that their ambulance is on its way and will be here momentarily.
And further down:
A Neighbor told me 911 [i.e., not an Ezras Nashim ambulance] pulled up a few minutes after Hatzolah left.
1. What ambulance did they call? Does Ezras Nashim provide medical transport, or do they rely on NYC EMS for transport? In this story, did they call for their own transport which didn’t come in a timely manner, or did they call 911 (as in the first story), who didn’t come in a timely manner?
2. What’s your beef with Ezras Nashim? Is it that they have a policy to call 911 after arriving at an emergency situation (hence delaying the arrival of EMS when they should have instructed the patient to call for emergency services themselves before they arrived), or is it that they call 911 and not Hatzola?
Health, as someone that keeps on saying your not PC, why dont you explain why Hatzalah is not the solution for the longer response times that EMS has.
If you want to be taken serious stop making such silly comments about you taking over the community EMS system, NYC Hatzalah is a very large operation only someone very skilled and knowledgeable can manage this on their own, people like that usually already have real jobs. just saying.
2scents -“Health, as someone that keeps on saying your not PC, why dont you explain why Hatzalah is not the solution for the longer response times that EMS has.”
Oh you’re correct, if that what was EMS was all about! But people not gullible, like me, know what EMS is really about! The way Hatzolah is now basically doesn’t serve the purpose of EMS.
“If you want to be taken serious stop making such silly comments about you taking over the community EMS system, NYC Hatzalah is a very large operation only someone very skilled and knowledgeable can manage this on their own, people like that usually already have real jobs. just saying.”
Once upon a time, I’d have rebuttal, but after all these years – I think what’s the point!
Health: While this has gone astray from the original post, Hatzalah was not started in response to poor EMS response time. The founder of Hatzaloh, R’ Hershel Weber, saw someone suffer a heart attack and died while waiting for the City ambulance (I don’t know if it was called EMS in the 1960’s). At the time, there weren’t any people who passed by who could help the person. Seeking the advice of the Satmar Rebbe (R’ Yoel TZATZAL), he was advised to get training and single handily started what is now known as Hatzaloh. It started in Williamsburg and then migrated to Borough Park and Flatbush. From what I recall the first Hatzaloh members in Flatbush were accepted in 1975 or 1976.
Joseph, I’m surprised you’re so willing to make an extreme broadening of the category of pikuach nefesh to apply to seemingly any medical situation to allow using a male in all situations. Very Modern Orthodox of you.
Nowhere have I done so. Do you believe childbirth is not a pikuach nefesh category? I haven’t suggested Hatzalah be called for a toothache.
Do you believe a woman is prohibited to use a male doctor for non-pekuach nefesh situations?
“Very Modern Orthodox of you”
I’m also surprised, youre arguing on “Daas Torah” Since they have support from Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman among others
Since they have support from Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman among others
Their website has a video endorsement from R’ Elya Ber Wachtfogel, saying that where possible, one must try to have women deal with these cases.
Neville Chamberlin: B’H Hatzaloh asks their shailos to poskim, not the CR.
I keep reading that Hatzolah responds within minutes. Joseph says there is a Hatzolah member living within every frum family in Boro Park. If one knows Boro Park, you would know that these claims are exaggerated
A, One member per block claim
Boro Park’s boundaries unofficially runs from 39th Street to 60th and from 9th Ave to 18th ( or 19th ). How doe Joseph know that each of these blocks has a Hatzolah member residing there? Does he have their addresses? Even if he is correct, you would need at least 3 members per block since members I presume leave the block to shul, to learn, to work, to doctor etc.B. Arrive within minutes claim
Boro Park is one of the most traffic congested areas in NYC, with far more cars than parking spots. The avenues, particularly 13th from 40th to 60th and the related side streets branching off, are congested all day with double parked cars, delivery trucks and busses. The numerous school buses block side streets in the morning and evening. If you have the misfortune ( as I have ) of turning onto a Boro Park side street only to find a Sanitation truck picking up garbage, it can take five minutes to get past it. Yes, the bus and truck should move out of the way, but the streets often don’t hove spaces big enough to allow them to pull over. I find it hard to believe the Hatzolah ambulances ( and the cars of Hatzolah volunteers ) don’t encounter these issues on a routine basis.iacisrmma -“Health: Hatzalah was not started in response to poor EMS response time. The founder of Hatzaloh, R’ Hershel Weber, saw someone suffer a heart attack and died while waiting for the City ambulance (I don’t know if it was called EMS in the 1960’s). At the time, there weren’t any people who passed by who could help the person.”
So what is the problem with that? Obviously, the patient was waiting for an ambulance & it took a long time. He/she didn’t get a timely response time.
So Stop Trying To Make Me Into a LIAR!Ii left out a key word
I meant to say within a block of every frum familynevillechaimberlin_ every second counts when it comes to someone in this situation
Health
You’re not a liar, you’re just pompous. You’re disparaging one of the most successful and well-run Jewish Community programs we have. You’re saying that they don’t know what they’re doing, and you can do it better. You vastly underestimate their capabilities, and whenever some challenges you, you feign ignorance as ” why are you picking on me?”.The fact does remain that the hatzolah response time is unmatched. Vastly, vastly Superior to any other city or volunteer program.
And yes, there is almost literally an hatzolah member living on every frum Square Block in New York City.
This is not an exaggeration. It is merely a fact.
Which is why, this feminist ideology, cloaked with modesty and privacy, is hurting lives. Unless they can swell their numbers to fifty or sixty members, there’s no way they can compete with hatzalah. And their insistence of not calling hatzalah when they’re in over their heads must end.‘on every block’
point is, AVERAGE on every block. and around the corner is counted. i know of at least 2 hatzolah members within three blocks from me. and there are more that I dont know.health: I am not making you out to be a liar. However, I wrote how Hatzaloh was founded and you added some words that I didn’t say: “Obviously, the patient was waiting for an ambulance & it took a long time.”
No one ever claimed that the unfortunate person seen by Mr. Weber waited a “long time”. The person died in only a few minutes but none of the people who witnessed the event had any medical knowledge to even offer assistance. You seem to have some personal issue with Hatzaloh. I am not sure why but I see from other responses that I am not the only one who realizes this. I can only hope and daven that you never need the assistance of either Hatzaloh or EMS “biz a hoondred un tzvantzig”..
yitzchokm -“Health You’re not a liar, you’re just pompous.”
I’m a medical professional, so it’s par for the course.
“You’re disparaging one of the most successful and well-run Jewish Community programs we have.”
I’m just speaking the truth, but you’re entitled to your opinion.
“You’re saying that they don’t know what they’re doing, and you can do it better.”
That’s correct; and been saying this for over 15 years!
“You vastly underestimate their capabilities,”
And you overestimate their capabilities!
“and whenever some challenges you, you feign ignorance as ” why are you picking on me?”
I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about, but go ahead – challenge me in this thread.
iacisrmma -“The person died in only a few minutes but none of the people who witnessed the event had any medical knowledge to even offer assistance. ”
According to your version of the events, why did they need to start Hatzolah?
All they really needed was a Frum movement that e/o should learn CPR!“I can only hope and daven that you never need the assistance of either Hatzaloh or EMS “biz a hoondred un tzvantzig”..”
Thank you. Same to you.
Health: I would like to make the following analogy. In 1965, someone starts a business baking bread. The person sees a need that his customers want other baked products and starts to make and sell the other products. His business becomes an instant success and opens his business in other neighborhoods. And within 20 years he now has businesses in 8 – 10 neighborhoods. Other communities in other states follow his lead. And within 50 years his bakery business is a wide success. Everyone buys from this bakery. We would sit here and talk marveling over this wonderful business and its huge success.
Now lets see what happened with Hatzaloh. I cannot say what CPR classes were available in 1965. But that was not the advice of the Satmar Rebbe. Did Heshel Weber know what Hatzaoloh would grow into in the 50 years since its founding? Probably not. He didn’t immediately go and buy ambulances or walkie talkies or multiple emergency medicine kits. He followed Daas Torah and himself took the training. And little by little the organization we now know as Hatzaloh was born. It went through growing pains like any other “business” and B”H with unbelievable Siyata Dishmaya has grown into what is possibly the #1 Chesed organization in world. So please stop criticizing what decisions were made under the guidance of the Heiligeh Satmar Rebbe 50 years ago.
BTW, I am a misnagid from Polish/Russian background and do not have any connections to the Satmar Kehillah.
iacisrmma -“He followed Daas Torah and himself took the training. And little by little the organization we now know as Hatzaloh was born. So please stop criticizing what decisions were made under the guidance of the Heiligeh Satmar Rebbe 50 years ago.”
My problem is that it couldn’t have been the Satmar Rebbe’s decision to start Hatzolah according to your version! But it could have been Weber’s decision to start it or it could have been my version of the former events.
According to your version, why didn’t the Rebbe say e/o should learn CPR instead of starting an ambulance squad?!?If they are first responders then they must know basic first aid and CPR. If a person is in cardiac arrest every Second counts!! These woman on Ezras Nashim should be trained nurses or EMT’s so that if they get a call no one has to wait that long. If G-d forbid a woman is in real danger with her health the fastest most reliable EMT (which I believe Hatzala is best) should be called it should not matter man or woman when someone needs life saving treatment like CPR. As a first responder service there is no excuse that they are not trained in CPR, every teenage lifegaurd is trained to be a first responder and knows basic first aid and CPR.
Health: You are missing the point. The Stamar Rov did not state to start an ambulance service. He told Mr. Weber and others to get trained and call the organization Hatzaloh. The realization that Hatzaloh would need to be able to not only assist as responders but to also be able to transport came out as a result of the calls they responded to. Please stop trying to rewrite history. It did not start out as ambulance service but as a “first responder” service.
Health,
Since you are asking to be challenged how about truthfully answering the following questions;
1) Just what type of health professional are you?
2) When have you last practiced at the health profession.
3) Why did hatzalah deny your membership?
I can only speak from personal experience and observation and I can say from those that Hatzolah has aced professionally, with great dedication and exceptional competence.
Sure there may be some politics, but that is any agency and that does not detract from the fantastic job they do.
There is a reason that when the police had an incident at the 70th precinct, the police called Hatzolah before city EMS.
Even if everyone knew CPR, you will still need an ambulance Corp.
I have tKen and fact taught CPR and the first step was always to direct someone to call 911.
And knowing CPR is far less than an EMT, let alone a Paramedic trained in ALS.
And actually having performed CPR is much different than just taking a course.
Lowerourtuition11210 -“Health: You are missing the point. The Stamar Rov did not state to start an ambulance service. He told Mr. Weber and others to get trained and call the organization Hatzaloh”
So you’re agreeing with me when I wrote -“But it could have been Weber’s decision to start it ”
So stop trying to make into a liar!
When you wrote – “Please stop trying to rewrite history.”NDG -“And actually having performed CPR is much different than just taking a course.”
Well, did the guy/gal live afterwards?!?
NDG -“1) Just what type of health professional are you?”
Much more than you!
All you know is CPR!
“I have tKen and fact taught CPR and the first step was always to direct someone to call 911.”“2) When have you last practiced at the health profession.”
Recently.
“3) Why did hatzalah deny your membership?”
When I was a Bucher, many moons ago. So I really don’t blame them. Since then I’ve been married and divorced.
I’m willing to take them over but not for free.
“Sure there may be some politics, but that is any agency and that does not detract from the fantastic job they do”
I guess you missed my point. I wasn’t talking about politics, but about the kind of job they do!
“Well, did the guy/gal live afterwards?!?”
What type of inane comment is this?
Health – Much more than you!
All you know is CPR!fSo you are not saying what type of health professional you are. The only proof that you bring to the table is that you are arrogant, and that is a sign of being a health professional.
I never suggested I am a health professional. My comment about CPR was responsive to the suggestion that if everyone knew CPR there would be no reason for an ambulance corp. This was a suggestion by someone arrogantly referring to himself as a health professional. I would guess that you may be an HHA.
You are also self admittedly not practicing your so called profession, Hmmm…
You also apparently have a beef because Hatzolah did not admit you. Which does not in the least seem surprising.
You also want to run hatzolah for pay. An organization that has hundreds of people volunteering, but you are soooo good that you would demand pay.
Thank you for clearing yup for all of us why:
1) You are not in Hatzolah
2) Why you will not tell us what type of health professional you are.
3) Why you do not practice in the health field.
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