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I’m loving this thread. All the history, from the insiders perspective….
I basically learned how to read from this site. All the times you posted about corrupting kids? I was tht kid. And, thank you for the fascinating view of how we yidden can be schismatic.
i have a lot to say about this topic. Part of it is unique to what this site was and still is. But most of it is that the larger way of posting, debating and even personal schmoozing has changed.
Should I continue?
Re: CTL,
I can’t fully discuss what exactly his upbringing was, I was not there. I do agree that pre-war and later American Jewish life was in bad state. I heard from R Nosson Sherman that his father would tell his elderly members of the shiur to come even during bad weather – “because who knows whether there will be a shiur after you”. Not clear where things were better. Chofetz Chaim letters c. 1920 from Poland talk about not sending kids to anti-religious schools, closer to 1930 he talks more and more about at least keeping Shabbos, Nida, having at least one kosher cheder per town, and even a suggestion for T’Ch to travel to different towns because maybe people who did not listen to one T’Ch would listen to another one.Did things improve by now? On one hand yes, we have big observant communities. On the other hand, “the rest” of the Jews look completely lost, as Chofetz Chaim was warning about. In 1960-90s there were a significant number of baalei teshuva, which I think is not happening to the same degree now.
Some poster who come in and out.
rand0m3x
shimonnodel
arihalevirosman
baltimoremaven
dr pepper
participant
philosopher
thelittleiknow
2cents
avi k
milhouse
catchyourself
doingmybest
meno“Why cant we find an option here to edit/delete our posts and accounts?”
Amazing idea!
Imagine posting something and someone replies to it and then you change your whole post so the other guy looks like an idiot!
Brilliant!
Really interesting to hear all this backround info. I just joined couple of months ago. This is really facsinating. Thank you Neville.
Ok, do I have the right to delete my account? (In red)
Coffee addict, a site that doesn’t allow you to delete your account is in violation. Hello reality 🙂
Firstly, there’s no way for the moderators to delete your account. I’m sure someone can do it, but not a moderator. We can technically delete all of your posts, but be would have to delete them one by one, which is at least 2 clicks each (possibly more), so we won’t be doing that.
Secondly, what “reality” do you live in such that you feel you have the right to delete everything you say?
“Coffee addict, a site that doesn’t allow you to delete your account is in violation. Hello reality 🙂“
You want to close your account or delete posts you have posted?
Closing your account is simple just stop posting (like Neville said) but you want to take back what you typed? Until you make a Time Machine tough luck
Neville: You’ll also need to change it to a fictitious email in order to prevent yourself from doing a password reset.
CA: An old timer poster “ames” managed to delete virtually all her voluminous posts, about two years worth. But she had, let us say, some inside help.
Mod, i disagree; teshuva works to undo one’s wrongdoings. If someone wrote something that he now realizes is assur or a bad hashkofa, and he doesn’t want it to be out there….i don’t see why he shouldn’t be given that right.
@Neville
My fiscal conservatism is not just from my personal pocket, but society as a whole.
That’s why I believe in user fees, such as tolls (which don’t exist in CT) so the user pays for the upkeep of the roads.As for the orthodox synagogues of my youth. They did not have mechitzas, they had balconies.
n0mesorah,
“I basically learned how to read from this site. All the times you posted about corrupting kids? I was tht kid. And, thank you for the fascinating view of how we yidden can be schismatic.”
While the majority of participants in the CR are frum Jews, I think the CR only reflects the CR, and is not necessarily representative of the frum world.
“Should I continue?”
By all means!
Aveirah, I will give you a bracha, based on your post. May you realize the errors of your hashkafos, and do a full teshuva for all you’ve done wrong here.
“Mod, i disagree; teshuva works to undo one’s wrongdoings. If someone wrote something that he now realizes is assur or a bad hashkofa, and he doesn’t want it to be out there….i don’t see why he shouldn’t be given that right.“
Avira,
Teshuva is where the person is מודה על האמת not be pretending he didn’t say it
Joe,
I remember Ames too but don’t know the situation of her postsWhat is the big deal with hashkafic posts? People grow and change and learn more about others and (hopefully) come out an improved person. If we wouldn’t share our possibly incorrect views, how would we be corrected? Everyone’s outlook is always changing. At the very least, I learn new ways of presenting things to people that are from a different background.
You know your really close to someone when s/he shares with you his perspectives that changed over time.
There is no issur to say bad hashkafa. If someone has a wrong worldview, the fact that they have to live with it is it’s own consequence. For example, I think I’m allowed to say that anti semitism is only because of our religious lifestyles even though it’s a ridiculous statement.
Please explain this to me.
ames was a terrific member with tons of excellent posts. It was really sad for it to all be removed. She requested it be deleted because of a silly worry.
No issur to say bad hashkofos??
Let’s start with megaleh ponim.
Then let’s go to bizayon hatorah. Ziyuf hatorah.
But no big deal because his body is not doing anything wrong!
Dear Avira,
I thought about that when I wrote my last post.
Do you really think my fictitious example is megaleh ponim or a bizoyin?
It more silly than anything else.
But let’s say I really believed it.
It’s not a bizoyon or megaleh ponim. I’m simply wrong.
So I’ll be corrected.
It’s a problem when I know it’s wrong and try to lie about it.
But being stupid, isn’t by itself a sin.
Nom, actually, making divrei torah into divrei havai is assur – this is why we aren’t allowed to teach gemara to women.
The velt asks a kasha – aren’t men motzi divrei torah ledivrei havai sometimes? The answer is that men have to learn, and it’s a risk we need to take. As long as we’re trying hard to learn properly, we aren’t punished. We’re onsim. But if someone in fact does not endeavor to learn properly, but instead wants the torah to fit his own preconceived notions… yes, he is guilty of megaleh ponim and bizui, ziyuf Hatorah.
Dear Avira,
But most hashkafic matters are not divrei torah. Saying that they are, would be a form of megalah panim..
I think the velt is caught in a paradox on that one. 🤔🤔
Divrei havai, is making it into something that is not Torah. Like assuming a mitzvah is just a life lesson.
Your making this all into one cholent.
I can’t begin to imagine what it would be like to learn Moreh Nevuchim with you.
Do we agree or not? I’m really confused and not following on this.
Hashkofa is certainly divrei torah. It’s all over chazal and pesukim. …agadeta, medrash, all are hashkofa oriented. You make a birchas hatorah on such limudim. What in the world would give you the impression otherwise?
Dear Avira,
Do I need to make a birchas hatorah before any of these statements.
Anti semitism is a result of our religious lifestyle.
No creature ever went fully extinct.
The aggados are binding on all Jews at all times.
All Zionists are kofrim.
Arayos are a problem because of how certain communities approach tznius.
Feminisms are against the Torah.
I know I’m not making sense.
Maybe you meant the reverse.
Divrei Torah is all over hashkafa etc.
Dear Neville,
I don’t even know what I’m saying. Just trying to follow the lifeline until the end. Hopefully we all come out on the correct side, where salvation awaits…………..
PS I appreciate being asked straight out do you mean xyz. But I don’t know if we are thinking the same xyz.
I would imagine that alarge part of Feminisms are against the Torah. I never got an answer why Feminisms in general are counter to everything.
Nom, you don’t need to make a bracha on the statement “pig is treif,” and you’re allowed to answer yes or no shailos in the bathroom.
Talking about why(insert italics) Zionists are kofrim, or why feminism is anti Torah, which would go through mekoros in chumash, chazal, etc .. Would require a bracha.
And yes, i wasn’t precise; i meant that chazal and tanach discuss hashkofa issues all the time, and these sources require a bracha. Hashkofa is certainly Torah; at a very base level, it’s hilchos lo sasuru, because it’s assur to believe in heresy.
Dear Avira,
Are you saying that proving ‘pig is not trief’ is megalah panim et alia? I think that would be correct. But I think that if we are wrong on this, that would not be a problem. It’s a mistake with no implications beyond what we would actually be wrong about. Meaning, someone would post ‘proofs’ that pig is kosher, and you and I would say that he is a megaleh et cetra, and Eliyahu would say he is not [Shrug. It’s a hypothetical anyways. Even today the mods won’t let it.] I think at least we would not be megaleh panim batorah, because nobody is going to eat pig or not based on how we label this wrongheaded poster. Since we weren’t advising anyone to do an issur, we were nothing other than mistaken. and we get rewarded both for stopping people from eating pig. And Limud HaTorah, eve though we erred. That’s my take. Would you say that we would be in the category of megaleh panim for wrongly saying that the poster is in said category?
PS Which of the above statements would be heresy in the reverse? Not just wrong. Actual heresy.
The Mishnah berurah quotes the chayei odom who says, based on rishonim, that one who believes in “thoughts that are opposed to the daas that the torah is built on” violates lo sasuru. Feminism is definitely in that category, since it can be proven that the daas that the torah imparts to us requires gender role separation and requires women to be in a socially and religiously different role than men. Thinking that women should be treated the same or given the same responsibilities is definitely apikorsus, such as thinking that women need to learn gemara, wear Tefilin, tzitzis, make kiddush at home, etc..
But you misunderstood my intention. I was saying that your one liners are a bad representation of hashkofa, because they’re statements without context, proofs, sources, etc, the kind of thing that requires a bracha.
It’s not that the topic itself isn’t torah, it’s that the statement is too simple to require a bracha, like stating “pig is treif” or “you’re not allowed to steal” –
If i say “i love Hashem” that statement doesn’t require a bracha, but saying veahavta es Hashem Elokecha does, as would a discussion of what that mitzvah requires.
So saying “feminism is treif” is not significant enough to require a bracha; it’s not that the topic itself isn’t torah, it’s that the statement isn’t enough.
For those who want to take their words back, know that the eye is watching and recording it at archive org periodically. This is not taking into account NSA and FBI … But I think this is why we cherish this anonymous forum that people can post things they are thinking about and can get honest (and more) feedback from fellow posters. On many issues, you would be reluctant to propose an idea to your IRL friends and they may be reluctant to point the contrarian views to you. So, if you end up realizing that you said something that was not accepted, you may change your opinion, or you may change how you argue your case.
“ I would imagine that alarge part of Feminisms are against the Torah. I never got an answer why Feminisms in general are counter to everything.”
Just putting it out there, the Rebbe saw feminism as an essentially positive movement at its core, that was there because the world was shifting towards the feminine- as will be completed fully when moshiach comes (all over Chassidus on the pesukim אשת חיל עטרת בעלה and נקבה תסובב גבר) but emphasized that the secular implications that women could be and should be as good as men with careers etc. was erroneous, and also anti feminism, because it implies that women have to be like men in order to be worth something. Torah is the true feminism that celebrates women’s qualities. Women were spoken to first by Matan Torah, where we started off, and women will bring us to the completion of the Geula.
But there were things The Rebbe did as part of embracing this era of feminism that were not done before, such as sichos just for women, encouraging women to speak up and give their opinion, special mivtzoim for women in and much more
Which Rebbe?
The Lubavitcher Rebbe
The Ohr Hachaim in Parashas Shemini explains that the pig will become kosher leosid lavo. Currently it does not re-chew but leosid lavo a new creation will occur which will re-chew and have cut hoofs maybe because Esov will do teshuva and change from his fakeness.
CS – outside of chabad, “the rebbe” can mean anyone. If anyone’s noticed, whenever speaking about the Lubavitcher rebbe, i always refer to him as such, even more than once in a sentence. That’s because i don’t appreciate the monopolization of the term “rebbe” being used to denote one specific rebbe, as opposed to dozens and hundreds of others who were greater than he was.
What you describe is similar to how kiruv people “drei” words and ideas to not be combative and be accommodating of modernity as much as possible without breaking halacha or hashkofa constraints. So “feminism” to the Lubavitcher rebbe seems to be a treif manifestation of an overall positive shift that he claims the world is going towards with geulah.
Ok, let that be the case for arguments sake. So is Christianity, according to the rambam. Should we teach people that Christianity is kosher? We have a Torah which teaches us what Hashem hates and what He approves of. Apikorsus is evil and baalei teshuvah need to learn that at some point; it’s not something you lead off with, but this is part of why MO and Chabad churn out half baked gerim and BTs; they pull punches and water things down, either with secularism (MO) or with watered down kabalah(chabad).
Ujm it would be helpful to quote which part of my post didn’t sit well with you.
So basically the Rebbe said that there is a positive thing that happens to have the same name as feminism.
Avira,
“ Ok, let that be the case for arguments sake. So is Christianity, according to the rambam. Should we teach people that Christianity is kosher? We have a Torah which teaches us what Hashem hates and what He approves of. ”So as stated, the secular manifestation of feminism is
wrong. The reason I mentioned the underlying theme is because too many women, feminism represents the idea that women are valued as much as men, as that wasn’t the case in the past. So The Rebbe latched into that
theme and showed how we have this in Torah so we don’t need modern feminism which is actually anti women/ family etcCont’
And at the same time there is a deeper meaning behind it which is the world shifting towards the feminine in preparation for the geula as mentioned…Cs, that version of what you said is better, but to secular people, “being of the same value”(which they are, Hashem loves women just as much as men) means equality in halacha and community. They consider it devaluing if they can’t lead prayers, wear tefilin, be rabbis, etc…
So what the Lubavitcher rebbe said did not address teaching the women the beauty of jewish femininity; the akeres habayis, the stronghold of emunah, the calm nurturing mother, the builder of klal yisroel, the daughter of Hashem – those are things beis yaakov teaches to inspire Jewish girls. And they don’t feel any less valuable because of it. Why couldn’t the Lubavitcher rebbe do the same?
People from Berlin better stay humble before we remind them the past and the present of Berliners! How Chutzpah to come in here to give lessons with Berlin attached to the name
Dear Avirah,
No I understood you. But I think we disagree about what megaeh panim applies to. I only apply it to where one is changing or misguiding the law. And not where one makes a mistake in his studies. I don’t apply it to someone who makes up his own ideology. Even if he is a rasha for doing so.
So…. Back to the topic… Why is bad hashkafa such a big deal?
Megaleh panim batorah shlo k’halacha?
Ki dvar Hashem bazah?
Lo sasuru?
These all seem out of place to me.
If the post is saying that this hashkafa nullifies a part of the Torah ch”v, then it falls into these categories. But the idea of modifying Torah to fit our hashkafos is the problem. Not the hashkafa itsef.
I would use this model even for ideas like hedonism.
Dear Avira,
Chabad girls are taught those themes as much as any other Bais Yaakov. In Chabad there is more emphasis on being a home maker than most of the east coast. If a family is sent on shliichus, the mother has to be quite the homemaker!
in chabad chinuch yes, but i am referring to their outreach. they are not teaching yiddishkeit if they are teaching that feminism isnt so bad. they should be teaching jewish femininity to BTs too, but in ways that they can relate to. They should highlight how society objectifies women and that the torah places great kedushah on them, and how that relates to tznius and abstinence,
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