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for once i’m glad to have been ignored.my post sounded kinda grumpy.
BP Totty,
Whith what does one have to fully comply? Juts Halacha or also Minhag? Is having a intense career and working more than full-time but learning four-plus hours a weekday enough, or must on learn full time? Is dressing proper but with color enough or must one be black an white? Is it enough to appreciate the ultimate Kedusha of Torah and Mitzvos and Clal Yisroel if must one also find the Kedusha HaShem has implanted througout his Creation?
“full compliance” is something you measure yourself, each day. Met the goal you set for yourself last week? Great. Now set a newer one, and try to meet that. Ruchnius (however you define it) really has no limit, other than the one you impose on yourself.
And no, it does not need to be 5-10 hours of learning, after work While nice, might prove to be a bit impractical. Instead, how about aiming for 60 minutes in a hour (borrowed line, not my own)or turning off your crackberry during davening. Or keeping your eyes from wandering where they don’t belong.
I could keep listing, but as long as your goal is to be more than you were yesterday, kol hakovod. If your goal is to see what lines I can re-define in the pursuit of all the good things in the oilam ha’gashmi, you’re driving a wedge between you and your true potential (wow, doesn’t that sound inspiring, without name calling and labeling?)
To me, what some people are calling modern yeshivish means the same thing as working yeshivish. Someone who learned for a few years in Bais Medrash and then went out to get a job without leaving behind his yeshiva upbringing. He wears a hat on Shabbos and maybe during the week, tzitzis out. And he works. I’m not a shadchan or anything but I know plenty of people like that.
BPTotty: It might come as a surprise to a lot of people here, but your definition of “full compliance” is what I always called “the Modern Orthodox ideal.” Constant growth, work and education are not a stirah.
Kapusta: So the yeshiva upbringing is primarily hat on shabbos?
kapusta – So working is what makes him *modern*? Oy Nebach
A yid is a yid! Drop all labels and a lot of LH will decrease! Actually, there are two types -ones who know better and ones who don’t!
ItcheSrulik: I meant to look at him, he looks yeshivish.
real-brisker: I called it working yeshivish. I dont go for the “if hes not learning ONLY, hes obviously not yeshivish” thing. Just because someone is not in Kollel doesn’t make him not frum. (Which some people seem to think unfortunately.)
Just because someone is not in Kollel doesn’t make him not frum. (Which some people seem to think unfortunately.)
That’s pure slander. Not once, since this site started, has anyone ever said anyone who isn’t in kollel is frei because of that. Link to one post that claimed that. There is none.
Indeed, no one anywhere takes such a position, in any frum society. That kind of comment is a strawman used to attack the Torah world.
kapusta – So dont mix it up with modern yishivish, it doesnt belong in this thread.
Kapusta – I would not stick the word *modern* into working yeshivish. It has no shaychis.
I think modern yesivish is the guys who have yeshivish ideals but don’t come from the typical yeshivisha background.
I have a friend that wears a leather kippa but went to yeshivvah is extremely frum and Ehrlich and not the stereotypical yeshivisha yungerman
I think modern yeshivish is someone who goes to a modern yeshiva which was opened in the past 10 or 20 years.
So YU, BMG, CC, are all not modern, but a yeshiva like Paterson which is only about 20 years old is modern.
I think I have a really accurate definition.
Modern Yeshivish: Someone who grew up Yeshivish (went to Yeshivish Yeshivos…) and comes from a Yeshivish home, yet doesnt dress and act Yeshivish and thinks they are fooling everybody that they are Yeshivish but are really only fooling themselves and everybody knows they are full of it.
pba – What do you have with paterson?
BP
Nice response.
My up-titsche of MY is; A gur yishevsha guy that knows how to use all types of modern technologies, like a computer, mp3 player etc.
Modern yeshivish is someone who learns from modern seforim, like the Avi Ezri, or Khilos Yaakov.
Modern Yeshivish is someone who started to frei out, but B”H didn’t slide all the way.
pba – I guess in paterson they only learn hintega achronim?!
brisker:
No no. This is a different pshat in modern yeshivish. I actually think my first one was the best, but everybody ignored it.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-does-modern-yeshivish-mean#post-166839
I think this thread is hilarious, since this terms is actually used, yet there does not seem to be a normative definition.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary:ish
Check out this link which defines what “ish” means.
As an adverb it means 1) somewhat as in “How was the film?” “It was good, ish.” meaning it was somewhat good.
or 2) reasonably, fairly as in “The exam went well, ish.”
meaning pretty well although not as good as I wanted
(in this context the “ish” is better than number 1)
or 3) about, approximately (wikipedia does not give an example, this one is mine) “childish” vs. “child” If you are acting childish your are approximating a child. (This last “ish” is even closer than the other two.)
Synonyms given are: around, near, nearly, almost, about, loosely, roughly, close to
I think this really sheds light on “Yeshivish”. Its a very hard term to peg hole and people take it to mean different things because as we have seen, “ish” ranges from o.k to close to.
As can be seen in the comments, some people claim that “yeshivish” is just a code word for a style and attitude, however the grade of frumkeit lies in yiras shamayim, others take “yeshivish” as the given indicator for everything.
The reason for the confusion is that “ish” can mean similar but not the same. And in our context it would describe someone who acts,looks,speaks… like a yeshiva product but is not the real carbon copy. He may lack in some areas, which obviously all people do, but being that “ish” is not exact, “yeshivish” is not the yardstick to judge with.
popa_bar_abba
Actually its not only hilarious but ridiculous. The shidduch velt is full of terms that people throw around and most people dont use them correctly and everyone thinks it means something else which is probably something that leads to a lot of no shaychis people dating each other.
I think my most recent definition is a possible definition to what MY is. Although now that I think about it the term Modern is a bit of a broad term and can extend quite a distance (to the right) from Yeshivish.
1. I can see it meaning a Yeshivish guy who has good Hashkafos and all that but maybe he will wear colored shirts here and there or has a college degree (from Touro).
2. Although it can also be a Yeshivish guy who “dresses very trendy and fashionable” and is very “worldy” but never went to college but he isnt the biggest learner but he learns part of the day decently and he wears a white shirt and is in a good Yeshivah so he is considered “Yeshivish.”
3. But then I can also see it being a more extreme version of 2 where the guy lives a total lie and he misses seder almost all the time and is never to be found in the “Bais” and he is busy with TV Movies, novels, and hangs out wherever by day and by night. But still wears a white shirt and therefore tries to pass himself off as Yeshivish and only his good friends know that he is a totally empty shell, everyone else thinks hes just not that into learning but he is an otherwise good Bachur.
Now I have another question. Is there a difference between Modern Yeshivish and Yeshivish Modern? Do they mean the same thing or is there a difference? Meaning whats the focus, the Modern or the Yeshivish? Does the order change what the focus is and what it means?
Popa what do you think?
Me? I already said, I think it is hilarious. The term has no meaning, since nobody agrees on any meaning.
Is there such a thing as a yishevsha girl?
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