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Sacrilege
I will start off with the same apology. I dont mean any of this personal and please dont take it that way.
“Because someone watches a movie or listens to English music they cant want a husband who is a Talmid Chacham, and wants a home surrounded with Torah?!”
A home surrounded with Torah has no Tv, movies, non Jewish music and other secular stuff in it.
One of my Rabbeim said to a fellow bachur who said “Rebbe, I want to learn, he said “You want to WANT to learn, but if you wanted to learn, you would learn”
My point was that someone who has such feelings for Yiddishkiet would not be watching movies and listening to non Jewish music or doing other such obvious things which are not permitted. They dont go together.
The mistake people make is thinking that “Oh if im not yeshivish, now I can watch movies, listen to music…” It has NOTHING to do with yeshivish. Nothing! It has to do with being machshiv Torah and living your life according to the Torah. If you are Machshiv Torah and want that to be your life, there is no room for things like movies and music which are clearly assur. The things you see and hear on movies, the hashkafos, the znus….those things are all antithetical to Torah. The things you hear in the songs as well. Even the nice songs are all about lust and sex. Theres nothing about true love and a real marriage in any of the music.
A real passion for Yiddishkiet means you couldnt entertain the thought to be involved with movies and non Jewish music. It would disgust you on some level. You may want to be that person but you arent that person yet.
Im very impressed that you have stopped and congratulations on week one. I wish you much continued Hatzlacha in your spiritual growth. Come back in a few months after cold turkey on movies, tv, music…and other non Jewish shmutz and then we can discuss this. You will see what I mean. You will feel different. It will be real.
WIY – you couldn’t have said it better
WIY
“A home surrounded with Torah has no Tv, movies, non Jewish music and other secular stuff in it.”
Clearly you missed my comment in the Giloy Arayos thread where I mentioned that I didnt want those things in my future home.
“It has NOTHING to do with yeshivish. Nothing! It has to do with being machshiv Torah and living your life according to the Torah.”
I’m going to disagree. There are levels. Would R’ Chaim Kanievsky watch a movie? C”V! But there are Rabbonim in America (who write in the Yated no less) who have TVs in their home. How do I know? I dated his son. My point is I dont think its so black and white. If I was going to be R’ Elyashiv’s future Rebbitzin (and maybe I should strive for that) I would be looking at this differently, but all I want is a good ehrilch boy who loves and appreciates Torah and wants to grow together with me. At 23.5 my lifes work isnt over.
??”? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ? ???? ??
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Well, there you have. Yes, I know I am quoting in a vacuum. Just adding some fuel to the fire 🙂
Moq
English is greatly appreciated.
It’s ok, Sac, sanctimony on the internet gets my hackles up too.
sac – Do you want your husband to be a ben torah, and also have no problems with him watching movies? That is a total stirah. There is no such thing as being a ben torah and at the same time watch movies. I dont care witch choshuvu person you know that has a tv. It doesn’t make it right. A ben torah is somone that lives a way the torah wants you to. And no the torah does not want us to watch movies or any of the sort. It could be rated the best It makes no diffrence. It is mitamtem the lev and a pure bitul zman. Its Assur Gumer.
Forget quoting in a vaccuum. i dont think the term “ben torah” the way it is used in the tshuva is meant when it is bandied about by people in terms of shidduchim.
Regarding the vaccuum. What exactly is R” Moshe addressing. From the snippet quoted it does not appear the question was “can you define a ben torah”.
Moq:
So someone who works to pay tuition IS a ben torah?
Sacrilege
People talk about growing together after marriage. However the only way to grow together, is if you are both on a process of growth before marriage. People “push off” the growing until after marriage and for those people they never grow. People don’t realize that they need to work on things before they get married because some things if not eradicated before marriage will likely never get eradicated. Or take many years or a serious wakeup call from Hashem.
A couple who both watch movies….before marriage will not stop after marriage. That’s not the natural way things work. A couple who both quit watching before marriage have a very strong chance that they won’t do so after marriage.
The same is with other shtusim that people are caught up in today. Stop while you are single!
Growing together isn’t about stopping to listen to non Jewish music together, movies, magazines, novels…
Its about growing your middos and growing in avodas Hashem. If someone is doing any of the above they have a whole list of things they have to stop doing before they can even begin growing together.
Maybe the reason you are still single is because Hashem wants to give you the opportunity to clean up shop so to speak. Hashem has a great guy ready for you but you may not be ready for him. You aren’t the person you need to be yet to be ready for marriage and maybe now is the time that it is mesugal for you to improve. You had the idea to stop movies and music. Keep strong with that. Listen Rabbi Mizrachis shiurim, listen to Rabbi Wallersteins shiurim. Maybe join Ohr Naavah….Continue to work on yourself and be inspired and become the person you know you can be.
Sacrilege: English? A busha to your sem:)
I hate translating, because so much is lost, but here you go. And yes, I had to add a little here and there, because some things don’t translate.
…And that which you have written, that many Yerim V’Sheleim who work in various professional fields, still their main goal in life is Torah and mitzvos – you ask, are they not Bney Torah??
And I answer, I have already written that they are Anishm Kasherim, yet it is not possible to consider them Bney Torah –
Because although the Torah was lenient, that not everyone is totally obligated to become a Talmid Chacham – yet the name Bney Torah & Talmid Chacham is reserved for someone who does the mitzvah of Talmud Torah properly, that is, to be worthy of the crown of Torah. And that is only one who does not spend his time on anything else, merely business or work in order to live minimally . And when he cannot obtain that, he eats from Tzeddaka.
And for hundred of years we have permitted people to work in Rabbinics for payment, or being a magid shiur in Yeshivos, and then certainly one could take such a position.
But if one does not wish to have such a position, but seeks a trade which will take up his entire day, because he seeks riches, and certainly if his goal is to be a Doctor or an Engineer – that then one must leave his Torah completely for many years, even before he will make any money, and he will require loans and gifts to learn these trades – it is not possible to think that a Ben Torah could be developed in such a way.
apashutayid- you are correct. Hence, the vacuum. It’s a semantics issue; Reb Moshe saw the term as referring to the ideal and ultimate Sheifah. AKA, no Torah Im Derech Eretz.
Today we mean the new concept of “Ben Torah Baaleh Bus” who learned a number of years in yeshiva and perhaps Kollel, is kovey itim and has yeshivish haskafos and shemiras halacha, and raises his home in such a way. True. I agree 100%.
And I have great respect for a Ben Torah who enters the work force, and seeks a parnasa which is nekiah v’kalla – often business and the like. And often he makes more money that way. He becomes a toenail clipper import exporter, which doesn’t sound as cool as corporate lawyer, but often finds that when the toenail market is going well, he makes more cash then the lawyer, and has far more time to learn because he doesn’t have to have “billable hours”. Kol HaKavod! (Not to put down frum lawyers, chas v’chalilah, merely adding the maaleh of dropping the need for respect from your parnasa, and focusing on making cash, and being a great father, husband – and Eved Hashem).
Moq: I think you used the term, the way R’ Moshe said it doesn’t apply 🙂
Exactly what was he addressing when he wrote that paragraph?
real-brisker
When did I ever say I wanted my husband to watch movies?
WIY
I think your wrong. I know so many people who threw out their TVs after they were married, whether they didnt want their kids to be influenced or because they realized it wasnt the type of atmosphere they wanted in their house.
Also, I have thought about that but I choose not to. If you think of all the reasons why you may be single and what you have to do in order to get married Bellevue will have a shortage of beds.
Tomim
They didnt know what hit them 🙂
Moq
Thank you for the translation.
I would disagree with the circumstances being unchanged when applying the words of the tshuva (as far as pusuing professional avenues in order to “get rich”. These days, with all the costs of being frum, even “getting comfortable” is a stretch for most).
But at the crux, R’ Moshe is condemning making investments in ones’ career. He says that those who invest time, money, and effort into developing professional skills is not a ben torah. But is an apprenticed tailor or cobbler any more of a ben torah? One is no less invested in the career, it is only a distinction of delayed vs instant gratification. Rather, he is distinguishing between professional Rebbeim and other professionals- and he is allowing for professional Rebbeim to still be considered bnei torah.
If that is the case, then being a ben torah is not meant to be a universal goal for all frum men. A ben torah must be a reserved term, perhaps the modern equivalent of “chaver” from the gemara?
Sacrilege
The TV of once upon a time is not the TV of today, the shows our parents grew up with were “Kosher” compared to todays TV.
People who have a TV today will have a much harder time getting rid of it and the damage done by todays TV is much worse than the TV of 10-15 or 20 years ago. You can watch shows that border on pornography its disgusting. The amount of garbage one can watch in a day is mind boggling. There is no heter, it is assur gamur to have a TV today or watch movies. A person is watching dvarim assurim every second on every show. Even the kids shows are filthy.
“Also, I have thought about that but I choose not to. If you think of all the reasons why you may be single and what you have to do in order to get married Bellevue will have a shortage of beds.”
Not true. Either way, dont think of why you arent married yet, think of what you can do to come closer to Hashem so that He should want to give you what you so desire. If you want to get married so you can live a life of Kedsha and Tehara, and bring holy children into the world to do Hashems will you have a better chance of Hashem helping you get married than if you are just lonely, need someone to watch movies or whatever with, want to get married because everyone else is and all your friends are…or all the other wrong reasons that people think of to get married.
sac – So you are going to be in the living room watching a movie while your husband will be huriving over a shvera gemorah? Way to go! Thats a perfect shidduch! Couldn’t do any better!
Brisker, please don’t ever seek a career in trying to teach or inspire young people – or old people, or any people for that matter.
Sheesh. She is trying to grow and figure things out. Is it impossible to talk respectfully? Don’t be a jerk.
WIY
Actually, the people I know who got rid of their TVs are only a few years older than I, and did it maybe 2 years ago.
Brisker
Are you so narrow minded that you only see what you want?
I stated on so many occassions that I DO NOT want movies in my house.
Moq
Thank you.
sac – A Ben torah is more than not wanting. Its not having.
Brisker
If the learning thing doesnt work out for you I know a couple of CDAs that would be happy to have your word twisting skill on their team.
Sacrilege
“Actually, the people I know who got rid of their TVs are only a few years older than I, and did it maybe 2 years ago.”
Ok fine. Thats impressive, but they still shouldnt have had it to begin with. It has no place in a Torah home.
All I want to say is that a person has to be honest with themselves.
I dont like being negative, but people today are all about fooling themselves. They talk frum look frum…but they arent. What a person does behind closed doors is the true measure of who they are and their real frumkiet. If a guy wears the yeshivish clothing, goes to yeshivah, passes himself off as mister frum but he watches dvds in his house (on a regular basis I dont mean one a year) hes a faker. Same for the girls. This also applies to non Jewish music, magazines, novels, and other secular media…
A Torah house is a sanctuary. Its a mikdash miat. A mini beis hamikdosh. If someone brings the filth of the street into his/her home, that home is not a Torah home.
“I said so many times that I DO NOT want TV/Movis in my house. I also mentioned in a different post (a while back) that I want my children to grow up with every advantage both materialistic AND (more importantly) spiritual, this means alleviating any doubts I may have had from the get go. I want them to grow up in a house where they are ALWAYS sure where they have NO doubts and where they are always excited to be a Yid. I know that may seem ideallistic, but that is my dream.”
You said this on another thread. Well its a beautiful dream to have but if you want your kids to be excited about being a Yid, the only way to do that is for you to be excited to be a Yid and anybody hooked up to secular culture isnt very excited to be a Yid and will not be able to give over such excitement to a child. Kids are very keen and they pick up on what their parents care most about. You can preach Yiddishkiet to your kids, but if your actions in any way are not in accordance with what you preach they will see you as a liar, a hypocrite, and they will lose respect for you and the message.
Bottom line. Its gotta be real and that requires sacrifice.
sac – Calm Down, Lwts get this straightend out. I am not trying to twist your words one drop. What I recall from your previous post (tell me if im understanding wrong) You stated that you do watch movies etc. and you are not yeshivish, And you feel that you can also want a husband that is a Ben Torah, and you dont see any stirah (conflict) between the two. *If you are not saying this diregard the rest of the paragraph, and please tell me what you are looking for otherwise* Yes it is a total stirah the two things. Being a ben torah and movies etc. do not go together. Its like fire and water, you will not get anywhere with the two. Tell me if I understand you wrong
Yoish
“Ok fine. Thats impressive, but they still shouldnt have had it to begin with. It has no place in a Torah home.”
Are you saying that you dont believe in growth? Can someone not decided to to chenge their life around?
If thats the brand of Yiddishkeit you subcribe to, I want no part in it.
“the only way to do that is for you to be excited to be a Yid and anybody hooked up to secular culture”
First of all, I am ecstatic to be a Yid!
Number 2, I think I can now be certified as a broken record.
“You can preach Yiddishkiet to your kids, but if your actions in any way are not in accordance with what you preach they will see you as a liar, a hypocrite, and they will lose respect for you and the message.”
You yourself quoted that I do not want TV/Movies in my home. Did you happen to miss that sentance? What i do now doesnt reflect what I want in my future home!
Brisker
Let me break it down for you.
I watch movies now. I do not necessarily want a husband who does. Is that hypocritical? Maybe. So I want a husband who is Frummer than I. Shoot me. Again, I DO NOT PLAN ON HAVING MOVIES/TV IN MY HOME (apparently I cant say this enough)
Me not being Yeshivish just means that I dont subscribe to the title. I have found in order to gain the Title, it is so much more about shtick and chitzonius than the actual person, I find that to be hypocritical and if thats the case I want no part.
Dah! There is a difference between compromise and gradualism. We are taught not to jump Dargos; to absorb things piece by piece. There is a difference between step by step; we cannot always live all our ideals but we can still strive for them and it doesn’t make us hypocrites! It makes us human, with nisayonos, with having a reason for being alive. Saying “I believe in that but I’m not ready for it yet, but IYH I will be” is perfectly valid.
Saying “I believe in that but I’m not ready for it yet, but IYH I will be” is perfectly valid.
I used to watch movies and listen to goyshe music and always planning to stop because I want to build a beautiful jewish home, when I was in shidduchim I decided to try and work on myself and cut down on it and be’ezras hash-m i’m getting married in a few weeks, I could say since my engagement I haven’t listened to non jewish music or watched a movie. You could be watching movies and saying you still want to build a jewish home it’s not a stirah.
I think that it was sanctimony on the internet that caused some bard to opine, A thing of beauty is a joy forever.
Sac – pushing it off till later, i.e. Marriage, wont work. Then youll be pushing off stopping the movies till you have kids. Then youll push it off till theyre a little older. Itll never happen. Your future choson can be playing the same game as you now. Stop it NOW.
Mazal tov michael jackson may you be zoche to build a bayis ne’emon b’yisroel, i agree with what you said, you could be what you are and work on yourself and still reach where you want.
Actually, it has worked for many people. One reason is that when married, they have their own home and they don’t own a TV. Its harder to stop watching when its sitting in your parents house right where you are.
Sac, don’t let people discourage you. Make your own decisions in life and remember, you can do whatever you set your mind to.
Sjs – sacs parents dont have a TV. Shes doing the movies herself. If she pushes it off till later, later will never come.
OK, but my statement still stands. Sometimes, its easier to make a major life change (like dropping movies) when you get married. There is also the possibility of “mishane makom, mishane mazal.” Sometimes, that little bit is all it takes – being removed from your rut.
MJ
Mazal Tov!!!
And I agree with you. When you want to craft your home and you need to set up a foundation you want the sturdiest one possible, if you have the conviction (which I feel I do) its easy to get rid of the “cheap” material and only use the best and right hashkafos.
Helpful
If you dont bring it in, you dont bring it in. Perdiod. Simple.
Rocker
I agree.
Furthermore, I have found that when I have taken leaps too big at a time it has only backfired.
SJS
Thank you for the kind words.
I do. And plan to.
sac – “I do not necessarily want a husband who does” Can you explain the word “necessarily”? Do you, or dont you, or your undecided?
Brisker
Meaning its not a make it or break it thing.
I prefer we he not want it. If its something very important to him, it may raise a red flag. On the other-hand, if its something he is working on, I can work with that.
Everything in life isnt so cut and dry.
Just thinking.. You want to date a guy who is undecided or not passionate for a or against a tv. You want a guy who will appreciate you for who you are.. growing.. But where do you think he will come in there .. growing but possibly you will hold him back..
To answer the original question about who defines a ben torah..
Someone who is an erliche yid. Someone who understands ‘lehavdil bein yisroel l’amim’ he is proud to be a Yid. By having that pride he lives with the torah all the time and is not tempted to go even a small distance from the torah. By doing that he will seak the advice of rabbanim at all times and will have an Ahavas Yisroel- if he is a ‘harry,’ ‘ben torah,’ ‘brisker,’ ‘tuna beigel,’ BP Totty’ etc..
bekitzur someone who brings Koved Shomayim to this world..
“Its not having.”
Seichel and manners appear to be of the more prominent “not haves” on a lot of peoples lists.
I agree with Sacrilege. I would prefer a spouse who doesn’t eat pork. But it isn’t make or break. If its something he is working on, I can work with that.
Sacrilege
Its nice to be accepting and openminded but don’t be so openminded that at some point your brains will fall out.
If you are personally not watching movies…, don’t date/marry someone who is watching movies. Even if he is working on himself, it may take time and in the process he can drag you down.
Its not enough that you are both growing, and growth oriented. You need to be in the same place spiritually or at least let him be on a higher level.
It pains me to say this but I know a guy who outwardly looks like a nice frum guy but his hashkafos are messed up and he watches a lot of tv and movies. He married a girl who was considerably frummer than him, she used to go to shiurim in her free time motzei shabbos…and very rarely watched movies.
He isn’t into shiuim at all. Basically he convinced her to stop attending “those boring shiurim” now they watch movies every motzei shabbos. He forbids her to go to shiurim. When he told me this I had to control myself from letting out the scream that was building in my mind.
Your spouse can ruin you and you won’t even realize it. It happens little by little and its hard to resist a spouse. Especially a young couple shona rishona they try to give in to their spouse as much as possible…
Don’t think you are smarter or you will be different. Marry a guy who already has the things you want and is living the life you want to live. Don’t wait for him to change during marriage because it may not happen. Don’t leave such a thing up to chance.
I suppose we should all marry perfect people.
He. his mind is only on the highest levels of kavana during tefilla, it goes without saying that he doesnt talk within 40 yards of the shul. Seder? not a single wasted moment. learns all day, and then some, eats just enough to have strength to go back to the beis medrash for night seder. Never speaks lashon hara. Middos are sterling, in fact, he interacts with nobody except his chavrusah, maggid shiur, shoel umashiv and rosh yeshiva.
She. davens 3 times a day. speaks no lashon hara. is found at the nursing home during mealtime helping the residents and when not delivering tomche shabbos packages is sitting home dutifully sewing a tallis bag for her bashert.
someone who is growing? has what to klap al chet for on yom kippur? feh.
sac – I dont understand you can you please be more clear?
So Right
Listen you cant be so picky.
Brisker
I really dont see how I can be.
Moq:
merely business or work in order to live minimally
Is paying tuition “living minimally”?
Gavra, R’ Moshe was fighting a different battle; I believe he was talking about the purpose of your life – if you are becoming a Doctor, that is your mode of self-expression.
Today in frum land you need 150k (in NYC) to make ends meet with a healthy size family – tuition, chasunas. Certainly R’ Moshe wasn’t referring to that. And often, the only way to do that is with a degree, etc.
I think R’ Moshe meant Academia & YU, in that your career is the point of your life. Not Yeshivish guy who’s financial ambition is pay full tuition and maybe keep a son-in-law in Kollel for a few years – so he does whatever he can to do so. I think R’ Moshe certainly would have agreed he was a Ben torah. Either that, or R’ Moshe is reserving the term for full-time learners and kley kodesh.
Sacrilege
Do you not bother answering me anymore?
I hope you arent upset at me.
WIY
Aawwww. I’m sorry.
No, I’m not upset C”V.
I didnt answer you because you relayed a tragic story, I didnt think it needed my haskama 😉
But like I said before, I’m not looking for a guy LESS from than me, I am looking for one that I can look up to. So really I’m not so worried.
Today in frum land you need 150k (in NYC) to make ends meet with a healthy size family – tuition, chasunas.
Scary, huh?
And I strongly believe you are UNDERestimating.
Sacrilege
I wasnt sure why you werent answering anything I was saying. Thanks for clearing that up. The awwww really touched me 🙂
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