what does "Get refusal" mean?

Are you not violating the contract of providing for your wife’s needs?

In this case it would be that she have the opportunity for someone else to fulfill that role because for whatever reason it did not work with you.

So in by refusing to allow your wife the respect and decency of an official divorce, are you not keeping her attached to you halachically against her will?

You already know that withholding the get goes against her will because she wants one and even is working towards the civil divorce.

To me, it sounds like it would help to be accountable to more than the Beis Din. Do you really need to wait until the Beis Din forces you to treat your wife like you care enough about her to recognize that doing this is best for her neshamah?

I pray that the Moderators approve this message. Shavua tov and may you empathize with the woman who ought to come first in your life. Thank you.

So you’re asking if it’s technically a violation of halachah to be a total jerk?

This is a sheilah for a Rav. That is what I was referring to on the other thread when I said that you should be listening to the Rav and not anonymous posters.

I was referring to the Rav of the Beis Din who seemed to be telling you that you should give your wife a Get if she insists on one and you quoted anonymous posters instead of listening to him (as I understood things. perhaps, I misunderstood what you meant. in that case, I apologize).

Then I thought it was irrelevant since I thought that you were going to Rav Simcha Bunim. I hope for the sake of your wife’s olam hazeh (this world) and your olam haba (world-to-come) that you do go to speak to Rav Simcha Bunim and that you do listen to what he says to do (whether it’s marriage therapy or granting a Get).

Btw, he’s a grandson of Rav Avigdor Miller (and I think a follower of his), whom Joseph kept quoting as being against divorce. So if that’s true and there is no good reason for a divorce, he won’t tell you to divorce your wife.

In any case, he is a wise Talmid Chacham, and if you do to him (or someone else), you should go in with an open-mind, prepared to accept what he tells you.

Lilmod, if the three dayanim who formally tried the case tell him he’s obligated to, then that’s correct. But not stam any rabbonim who didn’t try the case saying so, makes it obligatory. Until the case is formally ruled upon by beis din there’s no such obligation. Once the beis din rules on a spouse’s petition for a divorce, they might issue a verdict stating any number of possibilities, (examples) such as a) no obligation to divorce, go back to living together, b) divorce recommended even though not mandated, c) divorce halachicly mandated.

btw, where have you been all week, and why did you decide to davka come back for this?

Lenny, I think you should be in touch with Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen and follow his sage advice to a tee. You can’t go wrong doing so and he is far wiser than anyone here. Also contact Rav Dovid Eidensohn in Monsey who is also an expert in these type of shalom bayis shailos. No one can give you conclusive answers over the limited information shared on a public forum.

Joseph: “Lenny, I think you should be in touch with Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen and follow his sage advice to a tee. You can’t go wrong doing so and he is far wiser than anyone here.”

+1!

Lilmod, sorry, this one isn’t a joking matter.

Lenny, there are indeed two sides to every story. The last two people to be objective are the two spouses. In fact, the saying goes: There are three sides to every story – his side, her side, and the truth.

Your question was about a situation where the marriage is non functional. A civil divorce has been given, and you are no longer living together.

Both your rabbi and now the rabbi whose advice you sought (“But in the next breath, the Rabbi said I should give her a Get anyway because wife is unhappy, unwilling to work on it and we’d both be better off.) are advising you to give a get.

Withholding the get at that point (I don’t know if you’re at that point yet) is simple cruelty. Don’t be a jerk – listen to the rabbis and give her a get when they tell you to.

I don’t want to engage in an argument with some posters here, but as I’ve implied in the other thread, it’s actually admirable for Lenny to be eager to put in an effort to work out the issues at therapy and not just c”v throw in the towel. It doesn’t seem like Lenny is refusing to give a get for ego purposes or financial considerations, but rather because he has a sincere goal of making the marriage work out for both sides through therapy. A ‘get refusal’ refers to men who have already gave up on the marriage and are withholding a get for ulterior motives. Anyone who doesn’t recognize this distinction is probably blinded with feminism, which has unfortunately infiltrated into our community.

Limod,

Since we have concluded that at this stage there is hope that the marriage can be salvaged through therapy, then to discuss hypothetically in a situation where this is not the case, is only serving to discourage Lenny from his efforts. Would you like to be in his situation?

E.D. – his opening post was about what he should do if the Beis Din tells him that there is no hope for his marriage and he should give a Get but they can’t force him to do so. There was an implication that he might refuse to give a Get in that case, and that is what posters are concerned about and were responding to.

“Lilmod, sorry, this one isn’t a joking matter.”

I know. Sorry. That is just how I deal with stress.

Maybe he was discouraged when writing that post and sounded like he was ready to throw in the towel. Does that imply that the marriage is really not salvageable through mutual therapy?

He said that the two rabbis involved said he should give the get. You can imagine any scenario you want to, but I’m responding to what he wrote.

BTW, Lenny, according to the Jewish Press, a husband who refuses to give his wife a get deserves to be beaten up or thrown in jail. Just FYI.

Lenny

you asked

“Daas, why am i being cruel for not voluntarily & eagerly writing a Get? Can’t I just as easily ask why it’s not cruel for the wife to ask for a Get when there’s no compelling reason for one?”

you asked a similar question earlier.

Who said it isnt crule for your wife to aks for a get?

She isnt the one asking. You are.

And refusing a Get when their is no hope of the marriage continuing (for whatver reason) as you indicate in your OP is cruel.

ED- we decide what the Torah says based on what the Rabbis tell us. If all the Rabbanim he went to were to tell him to give his wife a get, he would have an obligation to do so (assuming he went to reliable Rabbanim). DY is 100% right about this!

It may seem strange to you that the Rabbanim might say this, but you don’t know all of the facts of the case and they do!

In any case, practically speaking, at this point, I don’t think he has really “gone to a Rav” yet. In terms of his personal Rav, I think he did say that he is following what he said. In terms of the Rav from the Beis Din, it sounds like he may not have followed what he said, but I think that he felt that he was just going to him for information or something.

In any case, now he is going to go to a Rav for real – Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen – and he is someone who is very chashuve and very reliable and has been highly recommended to him by several people. As long as he goes into him with an open mind and is willing to listen to him, even if he doesn’t understand why he is saying what he says, that is what counts.

I am assuming that he will tell him to go for marriage therapy and will recommend a good therapist, but it is possible he won’t. None of us knows the facts of the case, but the Rav he goes to will, so he should listen to that Rav and not to the anonymous posters. And imho, people should really be very careful what they say because they may be causing serious harm to people (albeit unwittingly). ?????? ???? You don’t know the facts, and Lenny is taking what you say very seriously, so be careful!

None of us really knows what is going on here. And the only advice we should be giving Lenny is to LISTEN TO THE RABBANIM, PERIOD!.

I am making a general statement that in no way is directed at any specific Rav. Rabbonim, by virtue of their position or their scholarship, are not necessarily qualified to guide or advise in matters of shalom bayis. That is said, because it would be divine to be able to obtain such direction from a talmid chochom. Having said this, there are many who have great experience, and have hearts of gold that make them terrific resources. They may not replace a therapist or professional, but can certainly be an asset to the resolution of a difficult situation.

There are certain mitzvos that we hope do not come to fulfillment. For instance, ???? ????? occurs in a tragedy. All of the laws of aveilus follow losses. Well, so is the parsha of gett. It is not pleasant, and nearly always involves conflict. But it is a mitzvah to divorce according to the dictates of halacha if that becomes necessary.

There is a major distinction here, and it is often overlooked (and seems to be missed in previous comments here). One can approach a Rav to pasken a shailoh. And when asked for a psak, the rav should provide that. In many cases of divorce, the question is asked whether a husband is obligated as per halacha to grant and give a gett. And often, the answer is that he has no chiyuv. That is the letter of halacha, and a psak that differs is not accurate. However, a Rav is also in a position to inquire about an eitzoh – advice. This Rav must then guide for the ultimate good, as per his understanding of the matzav. Many of these failed marriages would best be ended, and both parties free to pursue their lives independently or with new partners. Often a marriage cannot be reconciled, even if there is no halachic obligation to give the gett. Many wise rabbonim give their psak, and follow it with words of advice. Yet, recalcitrant men claim to be holier by following “halacha”. It is sad in these cases that the halacha of ????? ???? ????? cannot be mandated.

Let’s return to the term “get refusal”. It has more than one meaning. One is the strict halachic definition. If such a husband was not required by psak halacha to give a get, this definition would not apply. But as a mentch, one would be justified in fearing this fellow. It is often the ultimate abuse to chain a woman in a relationship that prohibits her from continuing her life alone or whatever other intentions she may have. The saichel is quite simple. “I do not want to stay married to someone who does not want to married to me.”

Yet, there is another arguable point, and has merit in some cases. The divorcing wife has several resources. The abuse claim, whether honest or not, is usually thrown at the husband, and gets a high score on the believability index. It is easier to ruin a man’s reputation than a woman’s. The custody battles more often favor the mothers, as do the controls that limit visitation and maximize financial awards against the fathers. For such cases, the men have few cards to play, and many choose to withhold the gett. I do not agree with them, but can often understand.

Can anyone start a trend of posting pleasant topics that do not stir up these completely negative subjects with all the hot emotions that follow?

I’d also like to add, for those reading this as a window of “insight” into an “insular” community, that the posters here are not a representative sample of the orthodox community as a whole. This “poll” is skewed toward those of us who are loudest, most bored, and online.

Vehamayvin yavin.

Ubiquitin: “that isnt quite true. If ED has a source for his strange din, then Rabbis cant decide against the Shu”A”

I am assuming that the Rabbanim involved know more about these halachos than ED does (or any of the other posters here), and that is really the main message that I am trying to get across to Lenny. If the Rabbanim do in fact tell him that he has to give a Get, he shouldn’t say, “but someone in the CR told me that according to the Shulchan Aruch, you are not allowed to tell me that.” He should choose a reliable Rav, and then follow what he says – after all, he chose him because he is a reliable Rav.

“And if the Rabbonim involved view (and even the OP himself suspects) the marrige is un-salvageable, then I am not sure why this discussion has more than one view”

+1! That says it all! I think that is the main thing that I, and DY and I guess you also and whoever else there was(and even Joseph agreed in the end) were trying to get across.

frumnotyeshivish – +1 on both posts! I especially like your last sentence. That is one of the biggest problems and scariest parts of the internet.

The people who are the best representers of Torah Judaism are the least likely to be online. They are in the Bais Medrash. So if anyone wants to really know what Torah is really about, you know where to go.

Where’d you get this notion that I’m online?!?

“Where’d you get this notion that I’m online?!?”

oh, actually, I thought you were in the Bais. That’s why I just told everyone to look for you there.

“Can’t I just as easily ask why it’s not cruel for the wife to ask for a Get when there’s no compelling reason for one?”

Lenny, your wife is not cruel, she’s unhappy. Make her happy (work out your issues) and she won’t need a get.

Again, as I’ve asked numerous times on different threads you’ve started and which I feel you seem to have skirted the issue, my question is whether you plan on working on yourself and dealing with the issues your wife has? I am not referring only to simple issues like whether your kids play baseball or video games, but whether you spend the time to discuss with her how you feel about your kids wasting time in front of a video screen and all of the physical/mental problems associated with lack of activity, etc, or do you just insist on your way and belittle her for having any opinion on the issue, and if the latter is how you have been handling things up until now, do you plan to correct this very basic issue of how you treat your wife? Does your wife not deserve to be happy? You might think you are happy, but since your wife is supposed to be a part of you (a very major part I would think) how can you be happy if she is not?

k, I thought so, just checking.

Why? Checking for what?

Not sure what the point was of your first 2 paragraphs

The point of the first two paragraphs was the part you disagreed with that you were trying to say he didn’t say…just saying