what do you think of daf yomi?

You are mixing two issues. Daf Yomi may be superficial, but that does not necessitate learning halachah. You might suggest learning less than a Daf, but deeper.

And while you are entitled to dislike the idea, the Daf was instituted by Gedolim, who knew that people were not spending many hours on it, so your calling it the work of the yetzer hara is out of place.

Longarekel, i don’t think you should so easily bash so much of k’lal yisroel and lemaiseh it is a kiddush Hashem when so much of klal yisroel gets together to make a siyum.

if there wasn’t such a thing as daf yomi which sets a goal, i’m sorry to say this, but i think a lot less people would have keviyus itim latorah. look how many people are learning because of this! Also, why would you just bash all the se people? do you have a specific reason?

Aha, So you have a more clear picture of it, than Reb Meir Shapiro Z”L.

I am not a big fan of the way daf yomi is learned today either, but I am not as cynical as longarekel either. There may be better ways for average balebatim to acquire torah knowledge but the daf yomi program has had a lot of success in getting people to be koveah itim (even people who you wouldn’t expect) and that is nothing to knock!

I would also like to point out that halacha l’mayse does not need to be the goal of your limud (it can be if you like). torah l’shma is learning for the sake of understanding the torah you are learning (at least that is how the nefesh hachaim defines it). If people are dedicated to learning pshat gemara, rashi, tosfos- or understanding the lomdus on the daf that is also great.

Hi longarekal.

Your passionate view is well-made and understood, making a good deal of sense.

On the other hand, anything that encourages people to sit down and even look at words of Torah, as well as bringing people to take on Daf Yomi, who might otherwise procrastinate their learning, has merits.

The depth of one’s understanding would be the responsibility of each person.

It would be difficult to measure just what is and is not gleaned by learning Daf Yomi. Certainly, a lot of ground is covered.

What is better? Learning a few things deeply, or learning many things, and covering more ground with a moderate understanding of those things?

To borrow a line from the political world: Please don’t make the perfect an enemy of the good.

S’koach. By the way, it was Voltaire over two hundred years ago… Le mieux est l’ennemi du bien.

longarekel, i basically agree with everything you said. i just want to add 2 points:

1. the daf yomi system has been elevated to such a madreiga that many people actually consider it the highest form of limmud hatorah. the result is that many people who can/should be able to learn much more (both in terms of breadth and depth) simply remain in the daf yomi system, blowing through masechtos, and never fulfill their potential.

2. on a related note, a big factor in the popularity of daf yomi is artscroll. now anyone can easily jump right on to the daf yomi train. while i admit that this is great for those wtih no background and would otherwise never be capable, there is a whole generation of people who continue to learn with artscroll instead of ‘graduating’ to the real thing. besides the obvious absence of ameilus batorah when learning from artscroll, many, many people are never going to acheive their true potential in torah learning because its just so easy to pick up the artscroll. i’m embarrassed to say that i know several people who are referred to by others as ‘talmidei chachamim’ who would break their teeth on a gemara without artscroll. its really just sad. again, i am all for opening up torah to everyone (like the gemara where they added 400 benches to the yeshiva when the entrance requirements were loosened), but we need to recognize that while artscroll might be a ‘sam hachayim’ for one person, it might be a ‘sam hamaves’ for another (in the sense that it is preventing them from reaching their potential)

Their silence isn’t. Anyone who went to a mainstream Litvishe yeshiva has heard these things before.

Anyone who went to a mainstream Litvishe yeshiva years ago would know that that in addition to the iyun sedarim, there was also a b’kius sedar which is similar to the amount covered by the daf. I wonder also if many of those in yeshiva rabbeim positions today are familiar with all non-yeshivashe masechtas and inyanim covered by the entire shas. Ahem.

miritchka – I’ve been in many shuls etc on Sundays, I don’t see them overflowing with those who really wish they could learn more…

“I know plenty of people who learn in kollel even though they have no geshmak but do so only because that’s what Hashem wants them to do.”

In my opinion, people like that should not be in kollel. G-d doesn’t want you to be miserable.

1 Daf Yomi was not invented by Rav Shapiro or the Chernobyler Rebbe it was in fact the Chortkover Rebbe zya.

2 For me who is busy working all day it is alifeline. No i do not understand or remember every word but when things come up in my other limmudim such as Chumash Rashi I remember some related gemorrohs from the Daf quoted by Rashi in chumash and the experience is exhilarating!

3 It leads on to other limuudim such as Halacha like you correctly suggest which are important and mussar etc.

4 The Keviyus/regularity is very important

I agree with the longarekel in theory. But I believe that metzios is that there aren’t enough people that are able to give over a shiur every day in halacha lema’asa. In my mind, it’s easy for any Joe Shmoe to give over the daf, but to give over halacha p’suka in choshen mishpat, orach chayim, yoreh deah, is much harder.

uneeq- Torah lishma is the greatest darga. to decide otherwise based on some logical explanation is downright wrong. what your emotions tell you in regard to learning torah lishma is also wrong. Torah is meant to be learnt lishma, fartig. knowing halocho isnt called not learning lishma.

uneeq: In the shul I daven in, we don’t rush from mincha straight into maariv every evening. There is a break in between, where the Rav gives a shiur in halachah l’maaseh. It isn’t a very long shiur, maybe 15-20 minutes, but it is only on halachos that apply in our daily lives.

As for Baal Habatim not learning halachah, I think the bigger churban is the kollel guys not learning it. After all, these are the people who are supposed to become the next generation of Rabbonim. Let them learn halachah so they can become poskim! Gemara b’iyun is not the only thing that needs to be learned.

you all assume that everyone has to be a talmid chacham.

you all assume that everyone has to learn the same things and the same amount or their leaning is worthless and superficial.

you all assume that your derech halimud and the derech halimud of your respective yeshivos is the only correct derech halimud and everything else is just a bunch of sheep playing talmid chacham.

longarekel: what is wrong with you? lets break down your criticism of daf yomi.

so some people have mentioned that if not for daf yomi many people wouldnt learn at all. if thats the case then daf yomi is a wonderful thing–because of course you would agree that limud hatorah is a wonderful thing–but no. youre completely discounting the benefits of daf yomi in favor of some lofty ideal where you live in a world where everyone knows kal hatorah kula. good luck with that by the way.

so more people are learning, but according to you theyre learning the wrong thing. assuming theyre actually interested in knowing halacha they will find time in their day to learn some. assuming they dont care that much but know that they have to be kovea ittim, then mitoch shelo lishma ba lishma, and your ranting is useless because they would never have learned halacha anyway.

some other genius mentioned that every litvishe rosh yeshiva is against daf yomi…that person is wrong. patently wrong. i spent some time around rebbeim who were a bit critical of daf yomi, but it wasnt the institution that they disliked, it was the fact that these people dont learn more. FOR WHATEVER REASON. the ideal for every rebbi and rosh yeshiva is to produce talmidim who never leave a beis medrash, and while that ideal is nice, it is completely unattainable and they know it. so they spend as much time as possible trying to convince as many students as they can, and one way of doing it is by saying “do you wanna be a daf yomi sheep, or a true talmid chacham?”

the choice is loaded of course because if you asked them outside of their roles as rebbeim, they would tell you that daf yomi l’maaseh is a wonderful thing–the fact that the person left the koslei beis hamedrash is what isnt wonderful. the fact that he needs daf yomi isnt wonderful. not the fact that daf yomi exists.

so knowing the entire shulchan aruch is a prerequisite for learning gemara? im sorry…i may have missed that in Intro to Judaism 101. last i looked, the mishna berura and shulchan aruch often make references to topics in the gemara and expect you to have some knowledge of those references. how would one have knowledge of those references if they cany learn gemara because they must learn halacha instead. bit of a catch 22 wouldnt you say?

so what you must want is a balance of the two, which i already addressed above.

longarekel,

well, here’s what I think. For most people, daf yomi is a waste of time.

I would be very careful about bashing other people’s learning like this. If my toddler gives me a picture of me and her holding hands, and in the typical toddler style they are two heads with long stick legs sticking out and the arms coming out of the sides of the head, and I know it took her only 5 minutes to draw it, I would be delighted by her attempt to connect with me in her own way. If an older sibling insulted the picture in front of her – after all, there are much better ways to draw a picture – I would feel upset with this sibling.

Yes, I understand and even agree with your concerns. One should not stand in place, doing nothing to rise higher. One who CAN learn on a deeper level should. The 15 year old shouldn’t think that a 5 minute stick figure drawing fulfills his obligations towards his parents. Still, the way you worded things was hurtful and derogatory towards those engaged in the study of Hashem’s Torah, and I don’t think that’s what Hashem wants us to do. There is a reason, after all, that the rebbeim you know are discreet about their concerns.

For people who don’t spend all day learning the daf-in depth and until halacha l’ma’aseh(and that’s the vast majority of people) it is an illusion created by he yetzer hara.

These are pretty strong words. Are you implying that the gemara should be closed to those who don’t have all day to learn it?

A person thinks he is ‘finishing’ masechtos when in truth he knows almost no Torah at all.

This may be true for some. It may not be for others.

How many people making the ‘siyum’ on shas will actually know shas, or even one masechta, or I dare say-even one perek?

I think that to put siyum in quotation marks is quite derogatory and uncalled for.

Instead, the precious time spent daily on Torah study should be focused on aquiring knowledge of halacha l’ma’ase like shabbos ribbis issur v’heter ona’ah yichud tahara brachos etc.

This is a valid argument, and I’m sure that a person serious about his learning discusses his learning with his rav.

Slowly, day after day, with a serious commitment, one can become a very real talmid chacham.

This is also a goal that can be corrupted by the yetzer hara. The ultimate goal of Torah learning is to come closer to Hashem, whether or not you have the ability to become a talmid chacham.

The yetzer hara knows this and therefore gets people to ‘learn’ daf yomi, make siyumim, and provide the illusion of knowing vast amounts of Torah, when in truth one remains more or less the same am ha’aretz he was 7 and a-half years ago.

It’s not the daf yomi that causes this, but rather a person who doesn’t grow from his learning. Some may grow learning the daf, others may need to use a different approach. Interestingly, there was a thread here in the CR a while back where the OP complained of the exact opposite: of yeshiva classes that “kvetched” over a single sugya for the whole semester, leaving the rest of the gemara a closed book.

I personally lean towards the more in depth approach. For me, I find it more important to make a piece of gemara mine, to get it down and understand it, then to cover a lot of ground. I certainly wouldn’t bash other people’s learning, however.

We are not fooled or impressed by grand ‘siyumim’ at big stadiums or ‘frum’ newspapers and magazines and organizations telling us what a big kiddush hashem it is.

I think this comment risks being an insult to the gedolim who attend the siyum, and who consider it a big kiddush Hashem. Are you smarter than them?

Instead I suggest we start having shiurim on halacha topics that matter, mixed with words of aggada and yiras shamayim

I think this is a great idea, and there are such shiurim in my community (and they don’t compete with or have rivalries with the daf yomi shiur, either).

as all jewish communities did from time immemorial until recently when this was all substituted for the daily daf.

Gemara wasn’t studied in previous Jewish communities?

It is time we stood up for the honor of Hashem and the honor of his Torah.

These are nice words, but make sure to not stand up for your ideas of honor while stomping on others’ honors to Hashem and His Torah.

Toi,not fartig!The Poskim in S.A. say that ba’alei batim who have only 3-4 hours to learn should learn Halocha le’ma’ase, and not only Gemora. Everyone, including bnei Torah, must know Halocha in order to know what to do! You can’t be yotzei just with boich pilpulim in the Reb Chaim’s chidushim!

Great, so your maskim.

Stam to add a bit; Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s son Rabbi Yitzcak said that if one learns Daf Haoimi the proper way then its excellent. The right way is calm and learn the halachos from the gemorra etc.

There are many Mesechtos in Sha”s that were “neglected” until Daf HaYomi came along and took them out of the attic.