What do women do in Gan Eden?

Joseph, is your point that men and women have different roles (and possible even that woman’s role is “lower” although it’s debatable what that means exactly) or is your point to put down women?

mod in bold: disagreed.

tis your prerogative

“I think that a lot of the misunderstandings here have to do with people’s starting points. Everyone starts off with things that are a given and things that aren’t and therefore understands things within that context.”

No, I don’t think so. I don’t see how some of Joseph’s posts can be construed as anything but offensive.

Whatever his intentions are, it doesn’t matter when it comes to gauging the posts themselves. Some of his posts are downright disgusting and misrepresent what Chazal say.

Yes he may have good yet warped intentions, but in Judaism, the means don’t justify the ends.

my hope when approving his posts is that more posts like this will follow so that people who meet those views offline will know that there may not be truth to it all.

“gofish, once again your comment does not remotely reflect any accurate description of my posts.”

Lol. You know, there are people who engage in verbal abuse with other people, and when called out on it, say exactly what you say.

There is no way for you to whitewash some of your posts. And the reason I’m responding instead of ignoring and shaking my head with pity, is so I shouldn’t be indirectly acquiescing with silence and that anyone reading these threads should know that your stand is not necessarily the correct one and may in fact be outright wrong.

You don’t have to bother responding to my post. We’ll probably just end up going in circles. I’ve said what I had to say, and I do hope that whatever insecurity is driving you on this women-degrading campaign will get healed and recovered. Good night.

Thank You lilmod.

Golfish: “We can say the same of all the many, many men in previous generation who did not know how to read or learn. The ameratzim, the poshute yidden who served Hashem with full hearts but very little knowledge. What about them?”

While I appreciate the intention, this comparison doesn’t actually do women justice. There have been many women much greater than this ameratzim you mention.

Any man has Mitva of learning torah and if he is Ameratz either he has far bellow average intelligence, or he has made some bad choices. In any case no matter how much he is justified for being ameratz, he still lacks something that’s very important for every jewish man to have.

Women on the other hand don’t have mitzva of learning torah and so their lack of knowladge says nothing about their Madreiga in avodas hashem.

And sorry for nitpicking.

Lilmod Ulilamed…. A canard is a duck.

Gofish, if you look at the rest of the thread that is quoted at the beginning of this thread, there are other sources quoted that present a very different point of view. I think it would be a good idea if someone could bring those quotes in here in order to present the more-balanced view you are looking for.

gofish: “Do you know what a chillul Hashem this makes for any person reading certain posts here that doesn’t have the knowledge that normative frum people chas vshalom don’t hold like that?”

Thank you for clarifying that normative frum people do not hold to those views on women.

Moderators: Thank you for posting gofish’s comment because I have heard degrading comments in outside life, which have been hurtful to me as a woman.

LU: I appreciate that you mentioned that some women may be insecure about their role in Judaism. I’ve swayed closer and farther from Yiddishkeit in the past due to negative experiences with high status frum individuals. Ultimately I want a relationship with Hashem, which I believe surpasses my perceived role.

Thank you again

lul: What do you mean? I’m not talking about anything specific he said here (I’m honestly just skimming)- more of a systemic issue I’ve noticed in the five years (holy cow…) I’ve been here. I specifically brought up the issues with women because of points made by posters like gofish and litebrite, but Joe has a history of being deliberately incendiary which I think is a big part of all of this. And if mods are admitting that they find some of his posts problematic but are relying on poster damage control, then I think that’s an issue which is entirely separate from the actual hashkafic question about women. (And Health’s tantrums and deliberate trash talking of women- I don’t think I need to defend myself for criticizing that…)

I happen not to really agree with you on “if you explain the true role of women any girl would be satisfied” thing- I know many girls who aren’t, even after all those years of BY which according to many posters here do such a bang-up job of instilling those ideas and giving the lie to feminism- but I didn’t want to get into that discussion. I more wanted to raise issues with moderating policy. (And honestly, I had no idea whether my comment would actually be published… my last comment of the type wasn’t.)

Do not confuse “moderating policy” (as in ‘mods are admitting that they…’) and “how different mods handle subjective material differently”

Writersoul, Lilmod Ulelamaid, Person1:

I see you are all relatively new to the CR. As they say: Welcome to the CR. Enjoy the ride!!! It’s all part of the fun!!

“Or maybe I changed my mind..” That clearly was not the case based on what you wrote before and have since deleted 🙂

Actually, that is exactly what happened. I chose to give writersoul’s post context.

“Actually, that is exactly what happened. I chose to give writersoul’s post context.”

Maybe there is more than one Moderator at work here. But someone had written that he/she didn’t understand how writersoul could be commenting on a post that he/she had deleted. I don’t think that Writersoul has Ruach Hakodesh, so the post must have been published BEFORE she wrote her post.

Clearly the post had been deleted and then posted (by someone else) and THEN WriterSoul responded, and then the original Moderator (who had deleted the post) was questioning how Writer Soul could be commenting on a post he had deleted. If the same moderator chnaged his mind, I think he would have know about it.

Today’s commonly known as “The Day After”

(then the dust settles.. and again..)

lightbrite – Thanks. but still, no one has paid attention to it, which I am very sad about. I’m not sure what gaslighted means, but many of my posts were deleted. I had to be deliberately very vague in that post so they would let it go through.

writersoul – You are not seeing anything different than you saw yesterday. The post was there when you responded to it, and it is there now, but it had been deleted at some point either before that or in between.

We are talking about the post that you responded to. The moderators had deleted it at some point, but put it back because you responded to it.

I wish someone would pay attention to its contents, since the moderators won’t let me do so.

Thanks for the definition. I don’t think I have to worry about that.Boruch Hashem, I think I am self-confident enough not to let myself believe a lie about myself.

Sam2 – +1 and if anyone would read the rest of that thread, there are some good explanations there, and I wish someone would copy & paste them here.

But if when you have time, you can bring your own explanations, that would be helpful as well.

the moderators won’t let me. You should be able to find them yourself. There’s a link near the beginning of this thread.

What do women do in Gan Eden?

Hopefully speak the same language as everyone else

“What do women do in Gan Eden?”

There is absolutely no reason to assume that they do anything different than anyone else and it is absurd to think otherwise. I really thought the question was meant as a joke.

By the way, for those who asked about men who don’t learn or women who don’t learn, your cheilik in Olam Haba is not based on how much you learn. It is based on how many zchusim you have. Obviously Limud Torah is a tremendous zchus, but it is not the only one. There certainly can be people who have little learning but have a tremendous cheilik and vice versa.

Even as far as learning goes, it is not only about the amount of learning one does. It is also about the mesiras nefesh that went into that learning. Someone who is only able to learn a little bit but does so with mesiras nefesh may have more of a zchus (and more Gan Eden) than someone who learns more but with less mesiras nefesh.

Also, supporting someone else’s learning can count as Limud Torah. And support does not only refer to financial support.

It is TfT, that is my absolute favorite Harachaman. Even in my fatigued bleary eyed state by the time I get there, those words always manage to get me to sit up straight and make sure I’m enunciating carefully.

As for what we really do there-

– Does anyone else know the story of the ba’al ha’agala who will always be going downhill? What we do up there has a lot to do with what we’re occupying our time with and where our thoughts are while we’re spending time down here…

BigGolem: Based on some threads here, it feels like parallel conversations about perceived messages that may have not been said by the person one is responding to in his or her message.

…So yes in this earth and even in this language there are communication barriers

My former Jewish Studies professor literally told the entire class that women are superior biologically. Because they generally have more body fat than men, that’s why so many women were able to survive the Holocaust.

Granted I dunno whether or not more women survived than men. If so, then also the cause of “why” may be a speculation or partially causative, perhaps.

lilmod ulelamaid: Language-wise… personally I did not take your message as saying anything less than neutral about women. Thanks for explaining on the record just in case 🙂

What do Jewish men and women do in Gan Eden?

They enjoy the closeness to Hashem that is the reward for building a relationship with Him throughout their years in this world (through fulfilling the mitzvos of the Torah in the way that applies to them). To me, the details of what that means is irrelevant. We’ll find out either way when we get there after 120 years.