What can Yeshivos and girls' schools do to prevent students' OTD feelings?

they should respect the kids

SHOW IT’S ENJOYABLE NO MATTER HOW HARD IT IS,THROUGH EXAMPLE.

Maybe increase the learning of Hashkafa seforim like Michtav MaEliyahu, some Maharal, which bring a certain clarity to the depth of what we are doing…. giving it a certain sweetness which can reinforce what we are dong ritually. Take the habit away, make it meaningful and rich.

I am probably on quite solid ground when I state that there isn’t a person who hasn’t had his own child, a neighbour’s child or that of a close relative go OTD.

I have always wondered at the phenomenon of having more baalei teshuvah than ever today while at the same time we are experiencing more FFB kids going OTD than ever before.

What gives?

I am not involved in chinuch but I do get the feeling that there is a major disconnect today between talmidim and their Rebbeim. Most Yeshivas do not have the resources to deal with non conforming kids and many take the easy way out by expelling them. Some take the equally non productive path of actually letting a non learning child stay as long as he is not being a negative influence on the other kids.

Neither option is helping the child.

I would think that more children today with their shorter attention spans cannot spend hours and hours in a Beis Medrash as their fathers did.

Piling on chumros after chumros preventing healthy physical and emotional outlets just give the child the feeling that he is in jail and will take the first opportunity to escape which many do.

I realize this is a very simplistic summary but the thrust is that we cannot use tactics from previous generations to deal with today’s problems. They will not work for kids today who are tech savvy and know what the world is all about.

It is not easy being a young frum child today.

sorry, typing too fast

*pretty strong CHANCE

There is one thing that has always bothered me. I feel that there is a tremendous effort put into making sire that people who are either irreligious or at risk are enjoying yiddishkeit that sometimes people forget about the people who are frum.

Let me explain- I feel that some people assume that all religious kids love yiddishkeit and that they don’t need any special attention or love or incentives or whatever. It has always bothered me that there is a huge attempt to make OTD kids feel unconditionally loved and to try to foster a love for yiddishkeit in those who are unaffiliated that ironically enough, those who are frum are forgotten about.

I think it is extremely important to make every single person, frum or OTD, feel special and loved. Those who are on the derech need just as much love and attention as those who are off. I think if schools realized this, their students will feel just as important and validated and it will make a world of a difference.

Bekitzur- If the topic is interesting and it responds to your needs and questions, why should it be less effective if you are tested?

The truth is most teachers at jewish schools are UNQUALIFIED and I dont mean they dont know the material. They very well might know the material, but it doesnt mean they know how to convey that.

And they dont know how to handle kids, An uncaring teacher who knows the material and doesnt care about the kids is as useless as a teacher who doesnt know the material.

And the reason the teachers are unqualified is the pay and teacher requirements. Many schools pay the teachers low pay and engage in nepotism, instead of hiring the best candidates they hire people with nepotism who are willing to accept the low pay, delayed paychecks and is friends or a relative of the Menahel.

In the girl schools they hire 19 year old girls who stay until they are married and then they usually leave.

Sorry a 19 year old girl is not qualified to teach teenagers

azoi – Interesting question you posed. I’ve been teaching for close to 30 years and B”H I’ve generally had very good relationships with my students. Oh – and we learn a ton. No party time in my class. But I try to never miss an opportunity to bring out points of hashkafa, no matter what the actual subject matter is. Kids are thirsting for hashkafa; they want things to make sense.

I just question why parents were left out of this question! Is it the sole responsibility of mechanchim to deal with kids and their questions? Parents need to be active participants and role models for their kids! They need to speak hashkafa – not just mussar – and explain things as well. And if parents don’t know the answers, they should model to their kids that it’s only proper to ask a rov.

As a mechanech, I don’t shirk my responsibilities, but I think we’d have less of a OTD issue if parents and mechanchim could work TOGETHER.

I would love to abolish tests as well. But the reality is that whne there are no tests people just so not try as hard to understand, retain and remember.In theory we (teachers especially!) would love that everyone learn lishma…… in reality, the yetzer horah makes sure that other interests take a front seat and push away real learning. I have tried it many many times in my classes over the years. If Talmimdim/os are taught inan exciting classroom environment by a tracher who genuinely loves them, loves his subject manner and loves giving it over, and gives fair but challenging exams then the sense of accomplishment and excitement is ever greater by being rewarded with high grades. Diluting tests gives a talmid-ah a feeling of being cheated. And lishma only works for a limited few. The Mishna says to always learn not lishma because it will bring to lishma. Fair tests with ample support and encouragement does much better than no test. Retention is better also. In the end if when you need it you cannot remember it, of what value was it? There is much greater productivity and creativity with good learning and testing.

In my freshman year in yeshiva h.s. a lot of us would ask sincere hashkafic questions about the things we were doing by rote. The rabbanim, European trained,would respond by calling them chutzpaniks. By the time we had a teacher willing to answer, in our senior year, the boys were already otd and were no longer interested . I came very close to otd

Also, they can stop molesting kids. That is a sure way to lower OTD rates, since it is very high among molested kids.

Teachers need to be very careful with what they say in front of a classroom. I had a twelfth grade teacher who responded to an innocent question – one asking her to explain what she just taught; not a random hashkafa question – with the statement “by asking that question, you effectively took your twelve years of education and through it out the window”. Although the answer did not cause such an adverse effect on me, I still remember the answer, and know that I refused to raise my hand to ask ANY questions from that point on. If questions are encouraged, and practices explained, it would very possibly help.

I recognize some of you from another feed, where as you know, I am struggling with my son going off the derech. I will just say that my son was shown a great deal of love, affection and encouragement from both me and my husband, and we always had a good relationship with good communication. None of this prevented my son from making the changes he’s made. He is enticed by the secular world, which is filled with many of the things we don’t have at home and don’t want. He never really enjoyed learning, although he is extremely bright. He went through a tough period in school where the kids made fun of him, and although we met with the principal a number of times to address this, apparently it made a deep mark on him, which he talks about ’til today. I have to agree, that I don’t think the school Rebbes are well equipped to deal with a lot of the behaviors in the classroom, and may make critical mistakes that seriously impair the child’s ability to develop a love of learning, as well as respect for Rabbonim.

Being a 16 yr old my self i know how hard it is to stay clean. All the movies all the music and whatever else u happen to find on the internet can really throw u off. If u dont have a geshmak for learning yet and the yeshiva wants u to be in bm for 3 hrs already and u have no interest u turn to movies and nonjewish music to waste ur time. Ive watched this happen to myself and to a bunch of my friends. As said in other posts the rebbeim dont know what to do. In my case my rebbi is a first yr out of kollel and has no clue how to deal with teens. The first thing yeshivos should do is get themselves some good rebbeim with knowledge with dealing with teens. Not someone who is related to the menahel or friends with the menahel and has no experience and uses us as his guinae pigs to see what works. All that does is help the kid slide further and further until hes totally off. Oh and hashkafa shuir or mishna berura whatever u want to call it when u ask them certain things they just wont give u an answer they tell u its not for now. That helps a lot. If u actually had the guts to ask the question and then ur turned down like that it guarantees that no more questions will be asked.

Sammy16- you’re right, the schools should have rebbes who know how do deal with teenagers, and the nisayonos they’re up against. In your opinion, what should my role be? How can I help my son? Can I bring him back from, like you said, wasting all his time with secular movies and videos? Or should I just leave him there until he hopefully gets sick of it on his own?

write or wrong- im 16 i dont think i can really give advice to a parent but ill try. At 16 ur really confused. U dont know what u want. U enjoy watching all the movies and listening to the music but u know its wrong and somewhere in side u want to stop but dont know how. U go to the movies because the learning doesnt really interest u. U find it boring, too hard to learn and then it comes to why do i need to do this anyway? And u tell urself forget about it and u stop learning totally. U should let him watch a little (try and limit it) but try to stop it comepletely otherwise hell go haywire but make deals with him. Ask him what HE WANTS to learn and learn that with him for as long as he wants. Guys dont want people telling them what to do they want to make the decisons. Let him make the decisions but u give him the ideas and let him pick. Really u should ask someone who has experience dealing with this kind of thing.

unfortunately, there is no way to prevent someone from having feelings of dissatisaction with judaism. the only thing a teacher/ rebbi can do is provide the resources for the child to get better. generally, what is causing the child to feel this way is a major trauma so if the kid has someone he knows wont judge him, someone that cares and wont make him feel dumb, he/ she will seek out the help and hopefully, with Hashems help, get back on track. im not male(BH!!!) but i really dont know how they survive yeshivah. i mean, my brother has learning disabilities- is he really supposed to sit and learn 24/7?! if he comes out of that with his self esteem intact, id be shocked. why dont yeshivos get that not all boys can sit and learn all the time? i understand that theres got to be some boys learning, but many are really not capable of doing that. if boys were created for the sole purpose of learning- why would there be so many guys with learning disabilities, adhd, whatever? Hashem wouldve created them capable of learning!

The-art: why is it the yeshivas fault. A yeshiva is a place to learn. If someone isn’t doing well there it’s up to the parents to switch him to a school where he can thrive.

What can boys Yeshivahs and girls schools do to prevent OTD feelings, thoughts and plans, where the seeds often grow?

Teach social skills and make sure everyone has friends.

People who feel appreciated and an important part of a community are unlikely to go OTD while in school.

1.)Make being Frum fun.

2.)Don’t lie and don’t crtitcize and or make fun of things you don’t fully understand

3.)”Sell” Frumkeit on the “quality of life” angle as opposed to the “Logic” angle

@wallflower

You make too much sense.

interjection- sorry, i phrased that wrong. im more upset about the attitude in the community. unless you learn 24/7, youre considered a loser. that is just so sad.

smilee- AWESOME! well written, and thought out. that is soooo true!