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The problem is that it is easy to point a finger at a very visible avaira like lack of tznius but harder to see other avairos. Those require change on a institutional lever i.e. schools, education about midos etc. Many of those require introspection as opposed to just telling someone else to be better.
As I originally said, I think it is a lessening of the fight against the yaitzer hara. I still think that each person should look into themselves, difficult as it might be, and try to change.
The main reason a tragedy like this could happen is because our children are not being taught to be streetwise. Instead of going off with a stranger, a nine year old boy is fully capable of understanding that he should go into the nearest store and ask for help. We insulate our children SO much that they cannot recognize stranger danger, because the stranger looks like other Jews. Monsters do not always look monstrous. Kids need to be carefully taught not to EVER go with ANYONE, even a woman. It is really high time we stopped hiding our heads in the sand and expecting miracles. My heart BREAKS for the Kletzky family, and I cannot get out of my mind the fear this poor sweet child must have felt. It keeps me up at night. We have to learn from this tragedy and teach our kids to protect themselves.
oomis, you are so right! He was a smart kid but he obviously felt safe with a man who looked like a frum Jew. Perhaps that is the lesson to be learned.
Oomis – You’re wrong. He just found one of those of us who wasn’t a good, normal one. I don’t think going to a store is any bit safer. In that area a lot of stores are owned by goyim and who knows what they could do. I actually remember such a story when I was a kid.
I like the idea of Mr. Patz -a emergency phone for every kid old enough – who would walk by himself. People who work in stores can also be dangerous. L. Aron worked in a hardware store. Stop with your hindsight of it could have been prevented if only… Try to learn from it for the future. And the only idea so far that makes sense is Mr. Patzs’.
Health, you misunderstand, I have no such hindsight. This tragedy unfortunately was decreed and I doubt it could have been prevented. But perhaps future similar tragedies can be averted by making ALL our kids more street savvy. And I think a frum 9 year old can tell which store is owned by a Jew.
Oomis – And you so missed my point! What is the difference of him going to a Jewish store or him stopping a Jew in the street? I just pointed out to you -L. Aron worked in a store.
Lessons to learn:
1. Kids shouldn’t walk alone.
2. If they have to, make sure they have a cell and know how to use it.
What we learn is why Avraham Avinu sent Yishmoel away, even though Yishmoel was his own son. Yishmoel was a pere odom, a sociopath, who would have been a spiritual and physical danger for Yitzchok Avinu and for future doros yeshorim. He had to go. Far away. Plain and simple. (The lefties love to say how much better things would be if Avraham Avinu had not sent the pere odom away – the answer is that we might not have been here today if he hadn’t sent Yishmoel away.)
We need to root out the sociopaths whom we now tolerate or even adopt as mascots in our shuls and neighborhoods. They are not harmless characters. They are nuisances at best and dangerous at worst. I found out recently that a supposedly harmless character from my old neighborhood, a nut who pretended he was a chazzan and even made tapes that he sold, is actually a molester. He’s not the only one – and his whereabouts are now unknown because he realized his time was up.
The problem with the cell phone is that perhaps his mother wouldn’t be home. He knew his phone number but his mother was out looking for him. By staying in a public place like a store, a child is most likely safe because usually the child wouoldn’t be alone with an adult in a store. It is very public. Standing on a corner dialing a phone doesn’t sound to me any safer. Besides, can you hear the g’shrai when cell phones are given out to 9 year olds? My sons’ hs didn’t let them have cell phones for any reason.
Unfortunatally, you can’t prevent every tragedy. You can teach your children NEVER to get into a car with ANYONE they don’t know no matter how frum the person looks.
Sure, crazy people can work in stores. But the odds are still better then asking a random person on the street. Not only should the children be told to go into a store (preferably a heimeshe one), but they should ask if they can please use the phone to call their parents. They should also carry some quarters, so if there is a pay phone, they can use it (which means, we also have to teach them how to use this almost extinct device). We have to work with what we have now, not what might be (such as Patz’s idea).
The challenge ahead is to explain to our kids that on the one hand if c’v they need help, they ask for it, while simultaneously being suspicious of those who they ask for help.
Some of the basics should be, always ask for help in a well lit public place and ask publicly for help, so that more than one person is aware you need help. Ask those helping you to call your parents or guardian AND 911. Remain where you are and wait for your parents or the police, do NOT get into anyone elses car, no matter how nice he or she seems.
Just to echo an earlier sentiment. How is a male on male crime, perpetrated on someone from perhaps the most tzanua of neighborhoods an indication that other women from other neighborhoods must improve their own tnnius? If that is your take away from this tragedy, then act on it, others have made their own individual cheshbon hanefesh and have come to different conclusions. This doesn’t mean anyone is right or wrong. Perhaps everyone is right, perhaps everyone is wrong, although I don’t believe that an honest and sincere cheshbon hanefesh can be wrong. Incomplete, perhaps. As for the klal, I will leave it to my rav to determine where the kehilla as a whole is lacking and where it can improve.
?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??????
Either that, or the chacham will recognize you for the fool that you are (not YOU specifically) and ignore the gibberish.
I for one, am very looking forward to what Rav Lieff Shlita will say tonight.
No, APY, don’t think you’re smarter than Shlomo Hamenech. The letz MIGHT hate you (?? ?????) but the chacham WILL love you (??????), no ifs, ands, or buts. And this is my last in this moshav leitzim.
Oomis – And you so missed my point! What is the difference of him going to a Jewish store or him stopping “
No I did not miss your point. I simply disagree with you. If there are people in a store, lots of people around, it is safer than a random stranger on the street. Unless a child walks into an unsavory place, like a pool hall, the chances are the people in the store will help him, and they are all witnesses to each other’s actions. THAT is the difference between a store and an individual on the street.
oomis1105 – You and other posters can disagree all you want, but doesn’t make your theory accurate. Like I said I recall a case when I was a kid – that a Frum kid was taken and killed from the worker in a store. And this was in a time when the streets were more or less safe. The problem is you people don’t want to admit that you aren’t in control. Just because we do Histadlus doesn’t mean we are in control.
I’ll repeat what I posted before:
1. Try to make sure your kids don’t go anywhere alone. Alone means without a responsible adult.
2. If sometimes they have to be alone make sure they have a cell and know how to use it. If the parents aren’t home make sure their cell # is in the phone or s/o elses whom they can contact. Any school will let the kid have a cell if it’s given to the office and held there until the kid finishes school. Obviously it’s prudent to call the school and explain why they need it that day.
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