Westboro baptist church?

OurTorah: While they did point out that you’re civil and impartial while engaging in debate and argument, it should be pointed out that here it’s different.

We’re talking here about a hater of HaShem and His people, as was pointed out here time and again. There is no room for civility – an enemy of my HaShem, of my people, is my enemy too. One of the aspects of ???? ??? is feeling and showing contempt for ????? ???.

Of course my response is applicable here.

It’s one thing to do aveiros because you struggle with a tayva, like most of us. And it’s even one thing to do aveiros because you are a kofer like the choveveiniks.

But these guys do aveiros because they hate Hashem. If you hate Hashem, you’ll try to do bad things whenever you can, just to be moreid.

Popa:

Sam’s point there was that if an apikorus believes that he is not an apikorus then his status as an apikorus should have no practical ramifications for us. You pointed out there, that if the reason why he believes that he is not an apikorus is that he is following a shita which you believe to be out of bounds, then he would be suspect of doing so in all areas of halacha and cannot be trusted at all. In other words his misguidedness is relevant on a practical level.

Here though, the Neturei Karta folk believe that they are doing the Ratzon Hashem. You can point out that they are misguided and you can try to convince them to change, but I don’t see how you can know that they hate Hashem. They might love Hashem more than anyone here, but they just don’t know how to properly show it. Unless you are asserting that they are lying to themselves, but I don;t know how you could prove that either. Just to be clear, I am not defending Neturei Karta in any way shape or form; I’m just pointing out that it does not necessarily follow from their actions that they hate Hashem, and if the issue is whether they hate Hashem, it is irrelevant whether they are right or wrong.

Interesting point

Everything done is mekadesh sheim shmayim

Doing something which Hashem hates is not the same as hating Hashem.

I’m alleging that they hate Hashem, because they hate the Jewish people.

Everything done is mekadesh sheim shmayim

Well, everything eventually leads to kiddush Hashem. In their case, when we are eventually yatzu v’ra’u b’pigrei ha’anoshim haposhim bi, ki solaatom lo samus v’isham lo sichbeh

Ok, so I guess this guy is Leshaim Shamayim:

PHOTOS: Friedman’s Kids Denied Access To School

So he got his girls kissed by a Holocaust denier. What a Tzaddik ! Like father, like daughters.

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/ywn-videos/151626/video-kol-chai-radio-speaks-with-moshe-aryeh-friedman-who-forced-his-sons-to-go-to-girls-yeshiva.html

That was ridiculous what they did to him and his family

You mean that they allowed them into the girls school. Yes, they should stop taking government money so they won’t have to do that.

Oh, I didn’t realize his house was robbed. But if it was after he sued them to put his kids in the school, so then he’s already a moiser-no?

And being a moiser is certainly much worse than being oiver on the three shevuos. There is no source that we kill someone who is oiver on the three shevuos.

little froggie- i totally understand everything you are saying, and you are correct. but my question for you is how do you come about interacting with NK then? am i supposed to be having a yelling match?

To me they are a bunch of brain washed cult memebers who don’t know any better, and if we don’t approach them in a respectful way, how could they ever understand what they are doing is very very harmful? It is the same way we need to talk to reform people, conservative etc.

Yes we can hate someone, but yelling will not get us anywhere.

Not at all what?

Not all worse than being oiver on the three shevuous? That’s an interesting opinion. Do you have any source that we kill people that are oiver on the three shevuous (besides your support for terrorism, I mean).

OK, A GOOD question.

Here lies the main difference. The reform conservative etc. are not haters of our people, neither of HaShem. And, if I may add, it’s IS possible to get through to them. These characters, however, are ???? ????? ?????, they are ????? ???? ?? ???? therefore they’re ???? ?????. And it’s a mitzvah to hate these as an extension of Ahavas HaShem – we cannot stand a hater of our Best Friend. No, we’re not here to get through to them – we can’t – nobody could – we’re just here to show our utter contempt towards ????? ??? ????. That’s ???? ?? ?????, no answer, because there’s no dealing with them, just for us (and others so they not join).

That’s what David Hamelech wrote, ??? ?????? ?’ ????.. ??????? ??? ??. The same Dovid Hamelech, fiery with love for HaShem and Jewish people, wrote the immortal, inspiring word of Tehillim, laden with feelings of yearning, repentance, joy, awe etc.

You seem to have an utter hatred towards people that disagree with your views however do you have a similar hatred of zionists especially the anti religious ones ? I doubt as much as you hate nk

“You seem to have an utter hatred towards people that disagree with your views however do you have a similar hatred of zionists especially the anti religious ones ? I doubt as much as you hate nk”

1. That doesn’t classify as English.

2. Are you comparing religious zionists to neturei karta? First of all, lets assume for the moment that Zionist are misguided, what’s the problem? The only issue is that they violate an agadata found in the gemara. Where is the commandment to hate them-its a fairly weak issur (especially compunded with ain misyashvim b’divrei agada (see rashba megilla 15b and Noda Biyehuda YD 161, and Shut Rashba chelk aleph siman nun)?Now, lets understand the problem with being a neture karta member: They want to kill Jews, which, last time I checked, is an issur that is yehareg v’al yaavor (for real). They are not comparable.

Do you know how many nisim hashem has performed for Israel?? I think Hashem is very “happy” with Israel

Maybe He is very angry that there is a government in Eretz Yisroel run by Jews in a very non Torahdik way, but despite that, He protects us because He loves us so much, and/or, as the Brisker Rov said, in the zechus of the Talmud Torah which takes place there.

It is not a stirah to say that the State of Israel is a chillul Hashem, and so is today’s NK.

I’m not aware of anything he said comparing or contrasting the two.

Here’s a list of “accomplishments done by Israel either directly or indirectly 1 25000 Jewish deaths 2 global anti semitism 3 turning millions of frum yidden into chiloinim 4 thousands of arab deaths violating the aseres hadibros 5 stealing Arabs homes forcibly u could go on and on but I think you get my point

u could go on and on but I think you get my point

That you hate Hashem. We get the point. We got it before you started babbling.

Oh speaking of the zionists prevented Jews from escaping europe. Ben-Gurion said in 1938: “If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel.” (Biography of Ben-Gurion by Shabtai Teveth, pp. 855-56)

Neturei Karta INCREASES Arab hatred towards Jews. They use the idea that there are “religious” Jews (YES in quotes because at this point they are just religiously CRAZY. I don’t think their behavior and actions allow them to be considered Jews anymore, let alone considered religious Jews) supporting them as justification for killing “evil Zionists.”

Jews who support the murder of other Jews are disgusting.

LF: what is the source of that hebrew phrase you posted?

VE: Other people having said disturbing things (and the Bn Gurion quote is taken out of context) doesn’t make it okay to do disturbing things in the future.

That’s not true I’m sorry

Hi, I’m fairly new to the site and have been following this conversation for a while. I felt compelled to create a membership and add my 2 cents, since I have some first-hand knowledge that might be helpful. A close relative of mine unfortunately got hooked up to NK, and b”h left after they turned more extreme. I know the NK ideology very well. NK sincerely believes not only that they are doing what Hashem wants, but that they’re actually “saving” Jews, including Jewish Zionists. They gain chizuk from the countless emails and posts to their website from people named Muhammed and Ali, claiming that they were intending to blow themselves up and now that they see that there are Jews out there supporting them they won’t do it, in order to prevent the killing of anti-Zionists in the processs.

What NK fails to understand, and what our argument to them must be, is that while they might have convinced a minimal amount of wannabe terrorists on one hand, they do not decrease terror attacks in general, and probably only increase them. Hamas and the PA still have plenty of members who either ignore NK or are just emboldened by them, using NK to prove that they’re killing for a worthy cause.

And the main problem is, NK currently does not have the backing of a single Torah authority to my knowledge. They’re must be a reason why all the rabbanim, including talmidim muvhakim of the Satmar Rebbe ZT”L, do not support them. Even if they would actually reduce terrorism (which has so far only escalated after their cozy meetings with the rasha in Iran), they would definitely need daas torah to justify the highly questionable means towards that end.

The only ones who know how to think are our Gedolim.