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voos- arabs DO NOT care. if they are peaceful arabs you can reason with them, if they are not there is simply no point- they do not care. they use you guys as propoganda tools syaing- look the jews dont even like themselves.
They only “like you” because you guys go along with their agenda- the minute they chas veshalom get into power you will be in the same boat as any other jew.
I simply do not understand why NK thinks that supporitng terrorists is any more “torahdig” than hating the state of israel. Hashem tells us to destroy our enemies Israel afterall is a mere political name for what is really underneath, Eretz Yisroel.
Even though you are not rational I want to bring up one more point. The Satmar rebbe z”ya himself said that once the medina was established they should NOT give any territories back to the Arabs!
There’s a rule in the middle east that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
Maybe.
But there’s a different rule that applies everywhere: the friend of my enemy is my enemy.
Give me one point that I agree with terrorists ??
How about you tell us all the points that you disagree with them, and then you can explain why you like to appear publicly in support of them.
Under which alias?
Which war was started by Zionists that you are advocating for its end? The enmity Moslems have had for non Moslems predates Zionism by a millennium.
Apy: don’t engage him. It just gives his ideas legitimacy.
Right. Let popa engage him, which doesn’t give legitimacy.
@ivory I don’t know where you got that lie from it’s completely untrue
I heard that the religious Zionists announced that this war [of 1967] was necessary and obligatory according to Torah [in order to save the Jewish people from danger]
Thank you for taking the time to post that, VE.
I wouldn’t let such a lie be said about the heiliger rebbe
Let me teach you something, loser.
The churban bayis rishon also happened because of our aveiros, but you didn’t see Yirmiyah hugging and defending Nevuchadnezar.
The churban bayis sheni also happened because of our aveiros, but you didn’t see rabban yochanan ben zachai hugging and defending Titus.
And you don’t see me defending Hitler.
No, it’s only reshaim from the eirav rav like you who would make that ridiculous jump. You just hate Hashem, and hate the Jews.
And it was your grandparents who made the egel and are the cause of all the galus. It’s no wonder you love galus so much.
It is a serious danger to the Jewish people if we point to those who do not keep the Torah and deny Hashem and call them the leaders of the Jewish people. All the nations are thereby misled to think that they speak in the name of Jewry, and thus they are transformed into anti-Semites. And really, if it were possible, even at the risk of our lives, to let the nations of the world know that these wicked men are not the representatives of the Jewish people, and that observant Jews have no connection with them, it would be one of the biggest mitzvos to do so. We would have to risk our lives to do it. But unfortunately, the rabbis are afraid of the people, and if there are any of them who do say something publicly against the Zionists, the chareidi leaders fight against him and defend the Zionists with various excuses.(Kinus Haklali, 1961, printed in Divrei Yoel Naso p. 128-9) that’s one of the reasons that nk protests
@pba a bit harsh don’t you think insulting me won’t get your point across m
Any better
I’m not trying to convince you. I’m just enjoying making fun of you.
Aha you ran out of things to say because you know your wrong so you insult me instead
Not really, I’ve been insulting you the whole time.
Voos pees
You are being so pig-headed and dogmatic that it’s rather frustrating conversing with you. Most of your so called facts are outright lies or taken out of context. When caught in a lie, you can not admit any fault. When presented info that doesn’t support you blind beliefs you summarily dismiss it.
I pointed out your bad English before to say that either you’re uneducated – in which case be quiet. Or that you are being disrespectful to everyone here with your sloppiness.
Voos- did it ever occur to you that the war of 1967 was a pure flat out miracle that no one in the world can describe other than a miracle straight from Hashem. If Hashem was truly so angry at the state why would he be making clear miracles there every day for the world to see?
Also the Arabs hated the Jews way before the war in 1967- in the Koran it says “kill the infidel” – the Jews R the infidels they have been after us since they existed.
You actualy believe there would be a lack of turmoil in the middle east if Israel didn’t exist and the Arabs had control over the state? I think there is enough proof that they hate America and the west enough to start a world wide jihad without Israel. Israel is simply an excuse and its Becuase the Jews are in control and they don’t like the Jews
MDG I have nothing to say to you because you didn’t say anything only a bunch of insults @our Torah firstly I have to give you credit for getting your point across in a polite way and not insulting me during this whole discussion however I have one question to you if it says in the Koran to kill Jews how come Sephardim were never massacred in Arab countries?
VE: They were. Several times. Aside from the Golden Age of Spain, Sephardim in arab lands were treated as Dhimmi (basically a status halfway between an Eved Ivri and an Eved K’naani) and there were several mass expulsions that caused widespread death and wholesale theft of everything. Learn history.
@sam2 wasn’t the rambam a doctor in Egypt ?
Voos Epes,
There was a short “Golden Age” for Jews in Arab lands when the Arab lands were ruled by people who valued Philosophy, Astronomy, Mathematics and discourse in general (Algebra was a product of this time and a good portion of the Stars in the sky bear Arabic names to this day)
When as today Muslim fanatics ruled Arab lands the Jews were persecuted as were all Non Muslims.
As Sam2 said above you should really try and learn some history.
Here’s what I really do not get about you NK folks: If instead of spouting untruths you would simply make the Argument that the Torah forbids making a state and therefore we should not make one, you would at least come across as someone whose opinion is worth discussing among other Jews who think that your position would matter if it is true. Instead of doing this you guys pull these ridiculous publicity stunts and use your platforms to spout things that are plainly untrue and make yourselves into a complete laughing stock.
Eduyos 1:4:
???? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??????
Rambam Peirush Hamishnayos sham:
??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????
Alternate translation of Rambam:
????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????
Bartenura sham:
??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????
Tiferes Yisrael sham:
????? [??????????] ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ????
According to my research, ?????????? or rechthaberisch is German for opinionated.
Voos Epes,
There was a short “Golden Age” for Jews in Arab lands when the Arab lands were ruled by people who valued Philosophy, Astronomy, Mathematics and discourse in general (Algebra was a product of this time and a good portion of the Stars in the sky bear Arabic names to this day)the Rambam lived more or less in those times.
When as today Muslim fanatics ruled Arab lands the Jews were persecuted as were all Non Muslims.
As Sam2 said above you should really try and learn some history.
Here’s what I really do not get about you NK folks: If instead of spouting untruths you would simply make the Argument that the Torah forbids making a state and therefore we should not make one, you would at least come across as someone whose opinion is worth discussing among other Jews who think that your position would matter if it is true. Instead of doing this you guys pull these ridiculous publicity stunts and use your platforms to spout things that are plainly untrue and make yourselves into a complete laughing stock.
You’re bringing in proofs of other points not what I pointed out. It is a FACT that the rebbe said that once the medina was already established (which might not be a good thing) you cannot return land to the Arabs
He was rational . Not like those who claim to follow his teachings
As Sam2 said above you should really try and learn some history.
Here’s what I really do not get about you NK folks: If instead of spouting untruths you would simply make the Argument that the Torah forbids making a state and therefore we should not make one, you would at least come across as someone whose opinion is worth discussing among other Jews…
Voss epes:
I was not hurling insults. I was telling the truth, which is something that you are not seeing, nor do you want to see.
Shu”t Chasam Sofer Orach Chaim siman 208:
????? ?????? ????? ???’ ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ?”? ??”? ??”? ??????? ??”?
?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?”? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ??”? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ??”? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????’ ??? ?????? ??????? ??”? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? [?”? ??”?] ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??’ [?????? ?’ ?”?] ??? ????? ???? ??’ ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ??”? ?????? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ?’ ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??”? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??????
???”? [????? ?”? ?”?] ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? [?”? ?”?] ?????? ?’ ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??”? ???? ??????? ?? ?’ ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? [????? ?”? ?”?] ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?????
???”? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? [???? ?”? – ?’] ???
???’ ????? ????????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???’ ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???’ ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?????
??? ????? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ????????? ?????? ?”? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??”? ???? ?”? ?? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ???”? ??”? ????? ?’ ?? ?????? ??”? ?”? ??? ?’ ???? ?????? ????? ???”? ??”? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???’ ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?’ ???? ?????? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ???”? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???”? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????”? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???”? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ?’ ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????”? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????
Read the quote I provided please ivory and then reply
@mdg it seems as though your incapable of answering properly therefore you hurl insults
?@mdg it seems as though your incapable of answering properly therefore you hurl insults
Aha you ran out of things to say because you know your wrong so you insult me instead
It seems you only have one line in your playbook. Better go ask your terrorist buddies for a couple more.
Your quotes have nothing to with returning lands or flattering murderes.. I finished arguing here. You are brainwashed
” it seems as though your incapable of answering properly therefore you hurl insults”
Answering properly doesn’t work with you as you don’t listen to the truth. And like I said (and others also said), you are not truthful.
Going back to the original question….
I have to agree with PBA. NK and their sycophants are just like the WBC. They take one item of out context, make much noise about it, and annoy others with it.
Hmm, and what do you think the punishment is for supporting those who murder our children?
I bet Hashem is just gonna love it. Probably sitting there smiling as you cheer on our murderers.
voos- i am not looking to insult you, you are my fellow jew. I am looking to understand you and hope that you understand me too and maybe get a point across to you.
Jews have been persecuted by arabs just like someone said before recalling the “dhimmi”. I commend you for trying to mend ties and spread “truth” about Judaism to the goyim, but honestly I think it is selfish not keeping in mind the rest of the Jewish world.
So maybe your correct that the state should not exist. Maybe I’m correct that whatever happened happened and we need to simply believe Hashem will do what is best for the Jewish people. Maybe the zionists are correct for upkeeping the state. Maybe none of us are correct. But to go out and ecourage people who call for the destruction of the state of israel, even you can admit it, they want to throw the jews into the water with it. And that is putting goyim before your brothers and sisters. Just cuz you disagree politically with them does not make them or you better. You are both Jews and you need to have each others back.
That is the main point I do not understand about NK. I get you have good intentions, you have a belief and you want people to see it. but I don’t get how you can go to sleep at night and not feel badly that you are encouraging the destruction of your own people.
It’s a mitzvah according to the quote I provided to distinguish between a jew and a Zionist and explain that to the goiyim
VE: Even if you hold that, “explaining to the Goyim” doesn’t mean attending Holocaust denial conferences and having public meetings with people who have stated that they want to wipe us out.
Its a bigger mitzva to make fun of you though.
voos- have you ever thought of it this way:
some people do not agree with zionists and say that they are not focused on the torah so much because they r focusing on their mitzva of “yishuv haaretz” that everything else dort of becomes meikil. They say they are not real frumma yidden because they don’t focus on the rest of the torah?
Did it ever occur to you that you might be doing that as well- focusing so much on the mitzva you have stated that everything else sort of gets thrown on the back burner and does not get the attention it might need?
I know you might say “but yishuv haaretz is not a mitzva”- try not to bring that point up, as that is not the point of what I am trying to say!
Pele Yoetz “Beis Hamidrash”
??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???????
guys lets remember that it is usser to ever hate another jew. even when the torah tells us to hate a mumar or other jew who dosnt follow the torah (source anybody?), the mitzva is to hate when a person does an averia, not to C”S hate the acutal jew himself. so while NKs svarous are krum, this does not give anyone reshus to hate a supporter of NK, only to hate the svarous of NK.
so lets not insult other jews, rather lets have a torahdik conversation.
(mods if another post already went through from me this night on this tread, pls delete this post)
Show Joe- you’re a real mentchse I agree with just that
??? ?????? ? ????
And I don’t lightly call someone a sonei Hashem. I wouldn’t call most reshaim that. It’s a pretty bad level.
But, Hashem also says that ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????. Hashem hates our enemies. So, my simple math, since the NK hate the Jews, Hashem hates them. And since hate goes both ways, we can quite confidently say that they are ????? ?. So we are supposed to hate them.
hate hate hate.
You have to understand that all these protests take up about 5% of the average Neturei Karta members time in fact if you go into any members house you wouldn’t find anything unusual so don’t think that It’s what every single member is busy with 24/7
showjoe: Rabbeinu Yonah says explicitly not like that. What you said is true for someone who’s just Over Aveiros every once in a while. A real Rasha there is a Mitzvah to hate. As a person.
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