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August 22, 2017 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #1345387LightbriteParticipant
Were the native Americans part of a lost tribe?
August 23, 2017 3:28 am at 3:28 am #1345441iacisrmmaParticipantNobody knows. They could have easily been part of the dispersion at the time of the Dor Haflagah.
August 23, 2017 8:47 am at 8:47 am #1345492lesschumrasParticipantIt is possible. It would explain why the Apaches only use chalav yisroel
August 23, 2017 8:47 am at 8:47 am #1345496DaMosheParticipantI know someone who is descended from Native Americans, who became a geyores. Does that count?
August 23, 2017 10:00 am at 10:00 am #1345511akupermaParticipantHighly unlikely. First, there is no record of any Jews showing up in pre-Columbian America either among the Jews or among the goyim. No tribe has a tradition of having migrated across the ocean. All genetic and linguistic evidence suggests the indigenous people of the Americas came from northern Asia (i.e. Siberia), not the middle east. — It is possible a handful of Jews made it to America “early”, since there might have been a Phoenician ship that made the trip and a Jew might have tagged along, and it is possible that in the 1500s there might have been Jews on a Spanish ship who if shipwrecked would probably prefer living among the Indians than the Spanish (for obvious reasons). — Thus if you know a pure-blood American Indian you can ask him to be your Shabbos Goy with no danger that the person may actually be Jewish and not knowing it.
August 23, 2017 10:24 am at 10:24 am #1345596JosephParticipantakuperma: We know that the Ten Lost Tribes went across the Sambation river.
August 23, 2017 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1345650r0xParticipantActually, a rock was found in Mystery Mountain, Los Lunas, New Mexico that has the Aseres Hadibros inscribed in an ancient Hebrew script. The interesting thing is that the Hebrew script that was used is from before Churban Bayis Rishon.
We know from Divrei Hayomim that Shlomo HaMelech had a navy that traveled from Tarshish – which had access to the Atlantic – on a 3 year journey and returned with gold, silver, ivory, apes and peacocks. So it is entirely possible that they traveled to the Americas.
Of course, this is assuming that all the land masses were not connected at the time, (forming a giant super-continent known as Pangea) and they just walked over.
As to the Native Americans descending from Jews, I recall reading somewhere that the Cherokee Nation has an oral tradition that they were descended from some Jews who escaped Masada during the Roman siege. They believe in a very similar version to our Brias HaOlam ie. the world was created in 7 days by one creator and the first Cherokee Woman was bitten by an evil snake and brought death to the world.
More recently, I read somewhere that their DNA markers show that they come from the Middle East region.
Not sure what any of this proves, or if it matters, but it is interesting.
August 23, 2017 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1345684akupermaParticipantokay Joseph and Rox: You can avoid using American Indians as Shabbos Goyim.
P.S. Just because you hear something on the internet, doesn’t mean its true.
August 23, 2017 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1345690JosephParticipantEr, akuperma, the 10 shvatim crossing the Sambation isn’t an internet legend.
August 23, 2017 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1345698lesschumrasParticipantJoseph, you actually don’t know that.
August 23, 2017 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1345720apushatayidParticipantIt has been a while since I have seen a copy (can get it at hebrewbooks.org) , but R’ Menashe ben Israel wrote Mikveh Yisrael in approximately 1650. He discusses the aseres hashvatim and if they would be various peoples discovered in the “new world”. I believe there is a chapter devoted to the Inca of Peru. I dont remember his conclusions. He was the Sephardic (I dont think there were many ashkenazim in the country at the time at the time) Chief Rabbi of Holland I believe. The dutch, and many of its Jews were huge explorers of the new world, settling many areas and establishing trade, to the point that Holland was a “major player” in the new world at the time. In the sefer, he records that a jewish captain returning from the new world told him that he was in what is now southern georgia (I believe in the sefer they name the mountain range which is in the southern appelaichan mountians), he and his assistant, also jewish, met with natives and they tried to converse with them in all languages that they knew, with no luck. When the captain turned to his assistant and spoke to him in hebrew, the native replied to him and then proceeded to recite Shma Yisroel….
That is the story as it is recorded. He discusses this and other stories he heard, or were told to him and tries to determine, based on what we know from chazal if they could be from the aseres hashvatim.He addressed this because “messianic fever” was very high. The expulsion from Spain was just more than 150 years earlier, the inquisition was in full force, the ashkenazic jews just suffered through tach vtat and yidden were looking for any sign that moshiach was on the way. the native americans and the tales of the lost shevatim being found were fueling hopes that moshiach was right around the corner as kibbutz galios was starting (hence the title, Mikveh Yisroel). I dont remember his conclusions about the Incas or othe rindian tribes. if anyone wants to do us a favor and read it and report back, thank you in advance.
August 23, 2017 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #1345722👑RebYidd23ParticipantJoseph, an unknown river is unhelpful in trying to figure out where people come from.
August 23, 2017 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1345730akupermaParticipantThere is no archeological evidence of Jews in the New World before 1492. No Hebrew documents, no tribes with a seven day week and one day off, no tribe refusing to eat treff animals (while pigs were from the old world, there are plenty of animals other than cattle and deet). — A scattered Jews is more likely to be a deserter from the Spanish military (which was operating in what is now the southeastern United States) – and he would not have wanted to be found by the English either (England was officially Judenrein until Cromwell, in the mid-17th century). Much of the gibberish on the subject has to do with Christians feeling the need to convert Jews for their concept of a messiah, and so deciding that Indians were really Jews would help (and finding a large population of Jews who didn’t hold by mitsvos would be a validation of “replacement” theology). — As I said, if a person is 100% American Indian (and not a ger/giyoret), feel free to use them as a Shabbos goy.
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