- This topic has 67 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 2 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
BARUCH HASHEM, i just got the word that wendy runge has been granted parole! she spent this past shabbos at home with her family, where she should be! wendy, congratulations!
That story really bothered me. Thank you for sharing the good news.
May all the other innocent Jews be released as well.
Amein, Boruch Hatov v’Hameitiv.
Thanks so much for letting us know! Davening for good news on the others, too …
What are you gals/guys talking about?! Please enlighten the rest of us. Who is Wendy Runge, and what did she, or didn’t she do? And what did the rest of the “Innocent” Jews not do?!
Baruch Hashem! @Eclipse — same. May other innocent Jews be granted their freedom as well.
I’m afraid to hear your definition of “innocent.”
huh???
Wendy, along with many others, was involved in an ill-conceived Iowa film tax credit program that cost the state many times what it was expected to cost and ended with several state employees losing their jobs.
The issue here is not innocence but different penalties for different people committing the same offense. Wendy’s sentence was disproportionately harsh.
The “others” I was referring to include Shalom Mordechai Rubashkin and Jonathan Pollard, both of whom also received grossly disproportionate sentences; Yanky Ostreicher, caught up in a nightmarish political scandal in Bolivia; Alan Gross, who was convicted by Cuba of subversion for delivering humanitarian aid (electronic equipment) to the Jewish community; and Warren Weinstein, an aid worker in his 70s who was kidnapped by al Qaeda in Pakistan. Of course there are also the Israeli POW/MIAs.
You can disagree with the politics or actions of these individuals, but the bottom line is that they are all Jews in desperate need of a yeshua.
This is great news!
It turns me off when people decide that Jews in these types of non-abuse situations are guilty.
I hate to shock you, but I was, at one time, accused of horrific and absurd things that did not have even a SHRED of truth to them. And what do you know?? The further away people lived, and the less they knew, the more SURE they were that the rumors were true. I think that judging others harshly – with “pseudo-facts” only – reflects poorly on the decisor.
It affected me so deeply, that to this day, when I see a person being “cuffed”, or shmeared in the press, my first instinct is “I bet they’re innocent”.Obviously, many are quite deserving of punishment, but at least I know that I don’t really know.
I don’t mean obvious murderers,like in the Kletzky case. I mean where are a person’s guilt remains to be proven.
crisis: How are you so certain she is guilty? The articles I read insist she is innocent. Clearly, we are both influenced by the journalism we read.Since there is obviously more than a reasonable doubt to go by, why favor the prosecution?
And by the way when I see innocent non-Jews being frisked in front of middle of a million people, it disturbs me too.
The articles I read said she was guilty and was allowed to plead to a lesser crime.The judge decided to throw the book at her when. instead of being grateful for being allowed to plead to a lesser crime and receive a lenient sentence, she gave a very insincere allocution and then, outside the courthouse accused the judge of anti-Semitism.
The evidence that the prosecutor had included e-mails between Runge and her conspirators, in which she asked for invoices, a number of them phony, for the purpose of artificially raising the cost of the film so rhat tey could receive nearly $2 million from Iowa.
The prison/penal system in the USA is ridiculous. With the exception of those who commit the most heinous crimes I feel bad for people doing time is prison and am happy this woman got out wether she is guilty or not
lakewood001 +1
eclipse, I agree with you. I was also accused of absurd things that are UNTRUE such that I understand that people in power=in this case the officials in the courts… can twist things TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE INNOCENT PEOPLE are guilty.
Basically, these people in power as well as the media have so much control that they can make anyone look as if they did horrible things that are many times untrue!!
only people who themselves were accused can understand how the “people in power” use that same power to make up lies about innocent victims because… and therefore, I and you know to be more wary of these type of stories accusing …
so everyone don’t believe it, especially guilty pleas which are forced upon others to get a shorter sentence or….
science: thank you,yes.
There is a story about a great tzadik who unintentionally caused a yid to be thought of as a person who didn’t repay a large debt….when the man, who had been driven to leave town due to overwhelming shame despite his purity,was found innocent, THIS GREAT TZADIK OFFERED HIS CHILD AS A SHIDDUCH FOR THE MAN’S CHILD, realizing that only a very powerful statement like that could possibly restore his once-sterling reputation.
Eclipse,
The tzaddik was the Ashkenazi Rashash (Rav Shlomo Shtrassen of Vilna). He lent money to the man who returned it while he (the Rashash) was learning. The Rashash put it in his gemara, turned the page and forgot it. When he was going over his ledger he noticed that the loan was not marked “paid” so he took the man to a din Tora but dropped it when the borrower declared his willingness to swear as he did not want to cause him to take a “false” oath. Of course, everyone believed the Rashash and the man had to leave town. When he went back to the daf he saw the money and remembered. This shows that one must always get a receipt, even from a big talmid chacham.
Regarding the subject of this thread, Wendy Runge committed fraud. The sentence was excessive but not because she is Jewish. In recent years, white-collar defendants in general have received Draconian sentences, even for victimless crimes such as violating some obscure regulation. This is a pendulum swing due to major scandals in which peole who caused great economic harm received at the most a few years in “Club Fed”. Now the pendulum seems to be swinging back as everyone is aware of the injustice as well as social and economic costs of overcriminalization and oversentencing. Hopefully a middle ground will be found.
I’m not going to comment on whether or not she did anything because I don’t know and have no real way to know.
I just want to point out that even if she did steal a few dozen thousand dollars, getting six months in prison seems like adequate punishment. We should be happy that she was paroled. And maybe the community will learn crying anti-Semitism instead of working with the justice system (whether or not she was guilty) is not a good way to get leniency in this country.
Oh, and Epclipse: You should look up the story with the Rashash. It did not have the happy ending that we tell kids it had.
What was the ending then?
And maybe the community will learn crying anti-Semitism instead of working with the justice system (whether or not she was guilty) is not a good way to get leniency in this country.
I’m not totally sure I get where you’re going with this.
Is your hope that we will learn the correctly effective methods of obtaining leniency? So that we will get leniency?
Is your hope that we won’t falsely see the justice system as anti-semitic, because it is bad for our integration into society?
Is your hope that we will pretend that things are not anti-semitism when they really are, so that people will like us more?
Please clarify.
For the record, and a preemptive response, giving a harsh sentence to someone for calling a prosecution anti-semitic is kind of troubling to me. It certainly doesn’t help the community heal from a couple thou years of anti-semitic justice system.
Is your hope that we won’t falsely see the justice system as anti-semitic, because it is bad for our integration into society?
I wonder how others feel about the system being anti-black, anti-asains, anti-native Americans, etc.
She took a guilty plea. Why do people take guilty pleas if they are not guilty?
@Nigritude Ultramarine
plenty of people take a guilty plea if they are not guilty. The prosecution can threaten all kinds of things that may make pleading guilty seem like the easier option. our justice system is neither fair nor efficient.
plenty of people take a guilty plea if they are not guilty. The prosecution can threaten all kinds of things that may make pleading guilty seem like the easier option. our justice system is neither fair nor efficient.
This is very true. See every article written about the justice system in the past 100 years.
I myself was tricked by my own lawyers.
It’s a lot easier to TRICK a client into something “simple” than ACTUALLY DO THE WORK THEY TOOK MONEY TO DO: prove your innocence beyond a shadow of a doubt, and clear your name!!!
Before the retainer they talk big, once the money is in their pockets, they are eager to move on…. and make more money from new trusting and vulnerable “criminals”.
Tzedakah money, mind you….
I dont know the specifics of her case. Just want to point out that the Iowa parole board back in May recommended she be paroled. Due to a technicality she had to serve at least 6 month of her sentence, a time that was just reached. The judge who oversaw this hearing, apparently agreed with the parole boards recommendation and granted her parole. If one wishes to believes that someone greased the board, as well as the judge hearing her case, nothing anyone says will change that cynical attitude. On the other hand I agree the argument, “oh those precious children” is not an automatic get out of jail free card as some seem to be arguing.
I don’t think we should discuss specifics of her case.
She pled guilty, did her sentence. Let sleeping dogs lie.
Popa,giving a harsh sentence to someone for calling the prosecution anti-Semitic is certainly improper. However, people are people. Statements such as this alienate them and cause them to look unfavorably on the defendant.Not to mention that they may be more stringent davka to show that they cannot be cowed.
Sam2 – what unhappy ending are you talking about? Rabbi Paysach Krohn’s book relates this story about the Rashash with the ending that Eclipse repeated above, so what are you referring to?
Avi K. Goggle the news.
Avi K: I strongly disagree, honestly. Forget this case for a minute. What actually happened is irrelevant to the point I’m about to make. Think about the following entirely hypothetical situation.
What happens if someone in court, through both their demeanor and reading between the lines of their statements, spends an entire case giving off the following vibe: I’m guilty and I know I’m guilty, but you can’t punish me because I’ll make everyone think I was innocent and you’re an anti-Semite. That would be a blatant attempt to undermine the entire justice system and yes, I think that someone who cries anti-Semitism in that case should be given the maximum sentence and then some.
Sam:
I don’t like hypotheticals. But if we must: Suppose also that said defendant had good reasons for thinking there was anti-semitism, such as referencing another similar frum person’s case to her, and setting the trial for rosh hashana. And suppose that her people had a 2 thousand year history of anti-semitic prosecution and persecution.
We didn’t make this anti-semitic prosecution stuff out of thin air you know. Maybe we’re sometimes wrong, but I’m betting there’s even more times that we don’t know the extent of the anti-semitism.
Read the comments on any story about jews. They don’t like us out there.
When Bes Din executed murderers back in the day (good times), they didn’t think about his poor wife and children at home. That was the responsibility of the murderer.
Whether or not Wendy is 100% guilty cannot be known by us for sure. What we can be sure of is that she made us all look bad.
I don’t recall R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky ever pleading guilty to a case in which he was innocent.
Whether or not Wendy is 100% guilty cannot be known by us for sure. What we can be sure of is that she made us all look bad.
You must be kidding. How could she have made us look bad if she was not guilty?
I don’t know who taught you such an absurd notion of fault.
I don’t recall R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky ever pleading guilty to a case in which he was innocent.
Seriously? First recall the case where he was facing a long prison sentence if he didn’t. Then we’ll discuss it.
You must be kidding. How could she have made us look bad if she was not guilty?
Because the fact is that she looks guilty, and people are talking. Reading this thread, even people within our own camp have a hard time believing she is 100% innocent.
Seriously? First recall the case where he was facing a long prison sentence if he didn’t. Then we’ll discuss it.
Precisely my point. Real tzaddikim among us have a tendency of never having to face charges in the first place. It’s an interesting pattern.
Don’t be ridiculous. Leo Frank also made us look bad according to you.
If you just mean that we look bad as a result you are correct. But if you think that equates to blame, I do not agree.
The 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe faced charges in Russia.
“Precisely my point. Real tzaddikim among us have a tendency of never having to face charges in the first place. It’s an interesting pattern.”
You are revealing your lack of knowledge of jewish history. Rabbonim from the chasam sofer to the lubovitcher rebbe have faced charges throughout history. The Maharam MeRutenburg was niftar in prison.
The Mahara”m MiRothenberg, Vilna Gaon, and Skulener Rebbe come to mind as tzaddikim who were in prison. Also Yosef haTzaddik, IIRC.
Ok Popa, I’ll give you that. Perhaps I placed too much blame on her for the resulting bad press we inevitably recieved.
However, if you agree to my last point, namely, that completely innocent and righteous people never face the judge in the first place (and I agree that it is arguable), a small measure of fault may be found with her for doing whatever she did.
jbaldy22 – Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I was referring to the modern American justice system. Also, I used the word “pattern”, not referring to an absolute rule, obviously. It’s just that certain people stay away from trouble.
LevAryeh- That’s if they agree to your premise. And that’s a ridiculous premise. Did you ever hear of “My Cousin Vinny”? Yes, that’s complete fiction, but it could happen. Someone could accidentally take a can of tuna and be accused of murder.
The cost of defending ones self properly can be financially prohibitive especially when certain elements in the system work it to their advantage. In addition the health of the defendant can be a factor as to whether to take a case to trial. The government can threaten to bring anyone to the stand they want (elderly grandparents, wives etc.) and can completely destroy a persons livelihood and reputation. The government also works the media to get the coverage they want. Indictment and penalization by the government is not an indication of guilt in any way shape or form.
Gamanit – one of my favorite movies of all time!
jbaldy22 – You’re not addressing my point though. Guilty means committing a crime. I’m not saying she’s guilty. You can get arrested and subsequently found innocent, but I think that a large percentage of people arrested are somehow involved with something iffy.
With the Yom Hadin getting closer and closer, it behooves everyone to be mindful about how they would want others to view their actions, especially the beis din shel maalah
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.