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I see some people wearing their jacket over their shoulders (not putting their arms in the sleeves) even on days that are not very warm i don’t know what it is but to me it is not a good look the person comes off as self centered or gaivadik i dont know what it is am i wrong?
Maybe they think they are a superhero and using their jacket as a cape?
Not only that, but what’s the shtick with wives wearing their husband’s suit jacket? I see this ALL THE TIME.
possibly there wives are cold?
that would also disprove the gaavah theory
Goq – I know what you mean. I don’t think there’s anything to it per se, but simply an association with the type of person who has the tendency to do that.
“I see this ALL THE TIME.”
I agree, this is problematic. You should not spend all your time looking at how other peoples wives are dressed.
A Ben Torah should dress like a mentch, wear your jacket liek a normal human being. Would you go in front of a King wearing your jacket over your shoulders? (It used to be that we would ask, “Would you go in front of the President of the US like that” but nowadays the answer is sometimes “yes”, we have lost the idea of a real king and what it means to be respectful in this age of Gaavah)
Would you go in front of a King wearing your jacket over your shoulders?
I guess I need to stop showering, eating with plastic plates/cups, humming to myself and reading while riding on the subway, since I would never do any of those in front of a king either.
The Wolf
Apushata: I think she’s said before that she’s a girl.
NOMTW: I always thought that was an issue of Begged Ish from the first time I saw it. Every major Rov that I’ve mentioned the issue to has disagreed with me though. I still don’t understand why it isn’t Begged Ish though.
really? i heard it WAS beged ish
You are not presenting yourself to the world when you are showering. When you present yourself to the world, you should project yourself the way you you would look before a king.
When you shower, you also do so as if your in His presence – that just has different ramifications in that circumstance.
[The above is not my opinion – just my attempt to make sense of a previous comment.]
Sam2 -I would imagine that she’s not wearing it as a beged – more like wrapping herself in a blanket. [That’s just an attempt at a sevorah – never learnt those halachos.]
First of all i think you should stop judging people, perhaps moshiach isn’t here because of people like you who have nothing to do with their time than accuse normal men and women on the street of being ba’alei gavoh.
Rant over. The reason why it’s not osur because of beged ish, is, as rashi on the pasuk of ‘lo yilbash’ says that cross dressing is only osur when it’s done in a way that could lead to wrongdoing. Here, it is merely being done due to inclement weather conditions, or perhaps because they’re balei gavoh, as you suggest, but certainly not to get upto mischief.
Hope this helps!
Forget about sloppiness, what about the dry cleaning bill?
(Especially after the jacket falls off the shoulders, onto the sidewalk and is run over by a baby carriage.)
Knacke: Some Poskim use that S’vara to be Mattir Begged Ish/Ishah in certain situations, but it’s clear that there’s much more to the Issur than just attempting to “get upto mischief”. For starters, things like plucking out white hairs or looking in a mirror wouldn’t be Begged Ishah if that was the case.
You are not presenting yourself to the world when you are showering. When you present yourself to the world, you should project yourself the way you you would look before a king.
When you shower, you also do so as if your in His presence – that just has different ramifications in that circumstance.
And the other stuff I mentioned? Is it sinful to eat with plasticware on a Wednesday evening at home in front of Him because I wouldn’t do so if the President were present?
The Wolf
Why? Why is wearing a jacket on my shoulders any different from eating with plasticware in that one is unacceptable because you wouldn’t do it in front of a king, but the other is acceptable even though you wouldn’t do it in front of a king? What’s the difference?
The Wolf
The assumption here is that one should always look dignified, as per his position in life (Jew, ben torah, whatever). [Maybe having to do with chitzoniyos me’orer hapnimius ?]
The key here is appropriate per situation. Plasticware at home makes sense. Period.
The key here is appropriate per situation. Plasticware at home makes sense. Period.
Ah, so if the idea is that one should look dignified in public, then I assume that if I bring lunch to work (certainly a public situation) then one should not use plasticware. Do I need to bring a real plate/silverware to work for my lunch in order to be properly dignified?
And what about the other things I asked about? If I were sitting in front of the king, I wouldn’t be reading a book, but yet I read on the subway all the time. Is that a problem? What about humming a tune to myself? I certainly wouldn’t do it front of a king…
The Wolf
Wolf, are you eating lunch in your office/cubicle by yourself or in the boardroom with the CEO/CFO and other bigwigs? If you are by yourself in your office, then you would look really silly, rather than dignified, to bring crystal and Waterford china to eat on. On the other hand, if it is a formal meeting with the staff and you won’t eat on the keilim because of kashrus, then at least have the dignity to bring fancy paper/plastic to give it more of an air of dignity rather than simple white plastic that cracks the minute you put something that weighs more than 3 ounces on it and starts dripping all over the white tablecloth in the boardroom. Does that make any sense?
Wolf, are you eating lunch in your office/cubicle by yourself or in the boardroom with the CEO/CFO and other bigwigs?
Even if I’m in my cubicle alone, I’m still in public. Shouldn’t my dignity count then too?
And, in addition, is the person wearing the jacket over his shoulders by himself, or is he with CEOs and CFOs too? The point being that eating with plasticware “alone” and in public shouldn’t be any different than wearing a jacket over your shoulders while “alone” and in public.
The Wolf
When I mentioned standing in front of a king I was mostly referring to davening. I see Yeshiva guys daven mincha with their hat tilted up and jacket over shoulders and shirt untucked. One should put their hat and jacket on nicely for davening. I think it is more respectful to be wearing a neat, blue shirt tucked into a clean pair of khakis with a kippa sruga then to have a white shirt sticking out, jacket over shoulders and hat tilted back.
Wolf, I think your dignity when you are alone is different than when you are with others. One always has to remember shivisi H’ lenegdi somid, but if it doesn’t denigrate your own dignity to eat on plain plastic plates, then you should feel free to do it in private. You don’t have to invite the office to come into your cubicle. Would you be embarrassed if a coworker stopped by and saw your plastic plates? A woman is permitted to be less tznius in her own home than she would be out on the street but when opening the door has to make herself presentable.
I think a person who goes with his jacket off his shoulders gives off an air of being casual, so if he is with CEOs and CFOs, then he could be insulting them. I agree with what Mod42 says about daavening. I’m not sure about the hat tipped back part, but untucked shirts and jackets off the shoulders is for sure causal attire for daavening and would be better off with less formal wear but properly worn to be respectful.
Maybe the true madreiga to strive for would be as you say that things would not matter if we were in public versus in private, but taking into account human nature, such madreigos are hard to maintain and without a true necessity to force a person to hold there I personally think it is okay to relax on these strictures when one is in private. You might think differently and that’s fine.
1. Wolf is spot on.
2. One of me rebbeim who learned in Lakewood many years ago asked Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l if he could wear his jacket on his shoulders on shabbos (there was no eruv). Rav Aharon said they used to wear their jackets like that in Slobodka and neither the Alter or Rav Moshe Mordechai indicated that there was any problem (i.e. it was fine – from both a musar and shabbos point of view)
Oh Lord.
Reading a book is not undignified. Its a perfectly logical thing to do on the subway, and therefore fits the situation. And so does plasticware at work – I only said “at home” because thats what you said. Yes, you are right,as I’ve said before – no one was suggesting that you may only do actions in life which are suitable before the king. It was just being used as a barometer, to show that when you want to look dignified you wouldn’t do this. I don’t know if I agree, but I think its a valid viewpoint.
If mod42 meant davening, thats a whole different story. Halachah clearly dictates you dress respectfully – because then you ARE standing in front of the king. (Yes, more than usual – I know Hashem is everywhere, thank you very much.)
Sam2: i’m not a posek and, for the moment i’m not attempting to be. All i’m doing is quoting the rashi on that posuk, who says clearly that it is only osur when it’s a toeivoh (a repulsive act). If you’re arguing on that, then go ahead, i won’t be insulted, though rashi himself may be!
Go ahead and check, you don’t need to believe me
g73 – The Alter’s (whole) method of chinuch was not to demand and point out, but to influence, and have the change come about by itself. Just saying. [Not going to get into the point of how cool they were in Slobodka, and whether that was tolerated or allowed.]
Knacke: It’s not an insult to Rashi to point out that according to some Poskim the Issur extends past just what the basic reasoning should apply it to.
g73–I thank you for your comments ! “Yasher chochacho” for your testimony-even as it is ‘ed mipi ed mipi ed”. Many years ago, I had this discussion with other people in a place that did not have an eiruv- I maintained it is ‘derech malbush’ and you can walk that way on shabbos- other people objected, saying that it was not “kederekh malbush” and so, I am humbled to hear that I was correct in my assumptions from the story you told. Thank you.
Yes, in terms of the halachah as well – k’derech malbush ot not, it is irrelevent whether it was 80 years ago.
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