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Change My Mind!
*Insert opinion of 68 year old Insurance Salesman who learned in Telshe when they thought electricity was ok to use on shabbos*
Why have your mind changed when you’re 100% correct?
Watching shkotzim injure each other or exert themselves to the brink for the glory of getting a ball to end up in a specific place is not very intelligent
Where did you hear of a time when any yeshiva or community used electricity on shabbos?
We can learn mussar from the goyim by how they run after a ball to run after a mitzva. We see this from Bilom when he bridled the donkey and was told that Avraham Avinu already did that, so he will not get any reward for his diligence.
@AvirahDeArah i had a first seder rebbe wayy back who told a story of how when he was in telshe there was some older retired guy who would learn there but flick lights on and off on shabbos. Apparently early american jews experienced this machlokes first hand and as such they were influenced by it.
Bikitzur my rebbe told the guy basically “listen i know you may have learned this sugya one way, if my kids ask however i will say you are a michallel shabbos”
EJMRBro, are you such an anav who does not capitalize his ‘i’s however, when quoting from someone else, you can do it.
Reb E – please, why do you feel a need to comment so much on people spelling mistakes ? Your posts are not without spelling and grammar errors and it never even occurs to me to call you out on it.
This isn’t English class, people are typing on phones and the edit option is barely functional. There are a lot of people out there with really poor written expression who get enough disapproval in real life that they don’t need it here too.Bored. If you find conversing in a ywn chat room amusing imagine what the excitement of a sports game can do. Regardless, in and of itself sports are a waste of time but they can serve a great number of purposes. Especially once we get into the world of “if not this then what?” Sports can be considered a great alternative to a lot of things that men are often involved in. It could be that some men enjoy watching a game or being involved in fantasy football the same way others enjoy eating a steak, simply because it’s enjoyable. Both of those things are problematic. But, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they are following sports as an alternative.
I figured it was something along those lines; it’s not like rav chaim stein, rav gifter, rav elya meir, or rav chaim Mordechai katz held that electricity was mutar. The way you worded it was implying that “telz” held somehow that it was mutar.
How we deal with individual jews is a different story.
If your child or grandchild is playing the sport, perhaps on a school or camp team, not showing up, watching and shouting encouragement is dumb.
Watching professional sports may be a waste of time.
Taking my grandsons to see minor league or college baseball in the springtime is time well spent in a wholesome environmentEJMRBro, It is one thing to pointed out as people make mistakes and another lehachis not to the follow it especially when others also pointed it out. You wanted to become a writer.
Yep, moshav leitzim is a very wholesome environment
It’s the halachik definition thereof, see shu”a OC 317 and elsewhere regarding circuses and theaters
Avira, shouldn’t it be OC 307 as 317 has to do with tying knots?
Reb E, yep, 307:17 – i got the seif mixes up with the siman
look at halokhos of gamblers as eidim. One of the issues is non-productive behavior – that should surely cover watching sports (and betting will bring the rest). BUT, the issue is less severe for someone involved in productive employment somewhere else. So, it might be that some moderate waste of time is OK for a person who learns or works for a living.
AAQ, shu”a does NOT differentiate between casual moshav leitzim and consistent, nor do the nosei keilim; it’s an issur like any other. Gambling is a different issue, because with aidus we need trustworthy people. If someone casually gambles it doesn’t take away from his credibility, either because he is not always owing people money and will take bribes or the pshat you quoted as not being part of productive society.
Moshav leitzim is the very act of assembling for something other than legitimate tzrochim or avodas Hashem. It’s a chilul Hashem, because these people could be serving Hashem and instead they’re wasting their time openly.
It also applies privately to secular novels (shocker) as stated explicitly in shu”a, that they are assur not only on shabbos but during the week as well, if they have no spiritual merit.
@Reb_Eleizer maybe i should type in ALL CAPS so its easier for the main demographic of YWN CR to read
edited
Avira, I understand moshav leitzim is people actually talking something inappropriate. I presume sport watchers also do, but don’t have to. So, I see it is close to gambling in terms of wasting time non-productively. You are right that if you throw in drinking beer and talkin stupid stuff, then it becomes moshav leitzim. But if not, would a person be allowed to have some relaxation time, leading to more productive life otherwise both in working and in learning? I don’t see why not. Probably same goes for novels.
Do you really expect lines like that to go through?
And why we are skipping rema who allows secular literature and war stories in loshon kodesh?
Shu”a says mesholim umelitzim, stam stories; nothing inappropriate. The proof is that the next words are if there are divrei cheshek, then it’s assur for another reason in addition to moshav leitzim, and shu’a gives the example of some romance book called sefer emanuel(which I’m sure was relatively tame by 21st century standards).
The rema doesn’t allow “war stories”, he mentions specifically Josephus because it’s Jewish history, which is valuable since it teaches emunah.
There’s also a mitzvah to know lashon kodesh, so it’s productive even if it would have been considered M”L if in a different language
Avira, after first printers were done with the Bible, they did a lot of “popular” literature that (I think) was quite inappropriate even by modern standards. I am not going to google for this sefer, but let me know if you did 🙂
This is quite a dilemma: will we stayed uninformed on sh’a or follow R Akiva “this is Torah and lilmod ani tzarich”
I think the mod challenged me on the idea that cultural issues need to be addressed with a psak from
today’s poskim, it is not sufficient to quote Sh’A. I am pretty sure this is an accepted position, maybe I used some flippant wording that triggered the mod (did I say “modern”? I include R Feinstein in that) . Hope this clarifies.Avira > rema doesn’t allow “war stories”, he mentions specifically Josephus
? my rema says: בשיחות חולין וספורי מלחמות
But overall I agree that the idea here is of spending time productively, as, for example, the next seif allows working with an astrolabe. Also mentioned sifrei chochmot. Idea of pareve entertainment for relaxation is not there. But the question remains whether feeble modern minds require that. So, maybe no need to recommend watching sports l’hathila but for those who are used to that and not abusing it, maybe it is Ok? similar to previous psak on smoking.
Avira > There’s also a mitzvah to know lashon kodesh, so it’s productive even if it would have been considered M”L if in a different language
Did someone forge this, or Avira is actually endorsing reading Tzioni books on Shabbos? read in ashkenazis pronunciation of course.
Don’t quote me on this, but I believe that the Ben Ish Hai held that electricity as a general rule can be used on Shabbos (provided it doesn’t heat up, like a lightbulb or oven) and that bikes can be ridden. Sefardim are much more meikel on electricity because of this.
Ivrit isn’t lashon kodesh; but yes, according to many poskim it’s at least a hecsher mitzvah to know lashon kodesh, so even sichas chulin or stam books that normally don’t contain material that is sufficient to take them out of the category of M”L are allowed because you’re doing some sort of mitzvah with it.
Avira, interesting, thanks. I thought it is very inappropriate to have inappropriate discussions in lashon kodesh, as that is you treat anything kodesh. You are saying that practical benefit of learning lashon partially compensates for the other losses. Glad to hear that there are Kookesque poskim in your world.
It’s nothing to do with rabbi kook or zionism, or the alleged centrality of lashon kodesh – there’s a level of mitzvah in learning lashon kodesh, to this even the vayoel moshe agrees, so something that makes you learn it is good as long as it’s not inappropriate material
Yserbius, you’re right about the bike riding, but incorrect about electricity. There were sefardi poskim who, based on the aruch hashulchan, were maikil with electricity on yom tov, because they held it was aish may’aish. Once it was shown by rav shlomo zalman (in his teens!) that the aruch hashulchan’s understanding of electricity was in error, that psak automatically falls aside. Some later sefardi poskim still maintained this shitoh despite its metzius-based refutation, but rav ovadiah influenced the sefardi world to completely abandon it.
Again, this was specifically yom tov and not shabbos.
Change My Mind!
Why should I change your mind? You’re entitled to your opinion.
The Wolf
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