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Is it Hamotzi becasue it is a seudah type of item? Or is it Mezonos?
The halacha is that if you set a seudah on mezonos, you make hamotzi and bentch.
Consult your LOR
If its paas habah bkisinin, then mezonos
Once slice may possibly be considered a snack, but 2 would be considered a meal which would require washing. Of course there are other opinions on this like on many things. Why do people object to washing? Certainly there is no shortage of water in our homes or Pizza establishments.
Pizza that is baked with cheese and sauce can be considered a form of pas haba bekisnin, bread that has pockets. The gemara says that such a food is unique, in that it requires a bracha of mezonos/al hamichya, unless one eats enough of it that is a shiur ot “kevias seudah”, the amount of food one eats during a meal. Even if he eats other things aside from the PHB”BK, they combine to fill this measurement.
There are 3 different opinions as to what defines the term “phb”k”. Some hold that it’s any bread-like dough that’s sweetened (a cake), others hold that it’s a pie type of food with a filling(hence the term”kisnin”, pockets), and a minority view is that it’s brittle(like pretzels). We rely on all 3 opinions independent of one another to make mezonos and not hamotzi, unless one has enough of it (or some of it with other food to combine) to have a meal. The Mishna berurah says that this amount is “3 or 4 bayim”,, or egg sizes, which is the equivalent of 8 shot glass sizes of food. Counting the “fluff” is a shailoh.
Pizza has a filling and is hence pas haba bekisnin. However if the dough is baked separately, it is definitely hamotzi. A slice has a lot more than this shiur, yet there is an argument to be made that the shiur describes a seudah, and one slice of pizza as it is eaten culturally isn’t a meal. We may also rely on the stricter opinions for kezayis and say that the slice doesn’t have 4 bayim. The common minhag is to only make hamotzi on two slices, and rav belsky told me that i personally can rely on this. (The implication was that each person should ask their own shailoh).
The seudah goes with a shiur, a measurement for a meal which in this case is two slices as above.
Basing it on the number of slices can be misleading because one pizza stores single slice is equal in size to another store’s two slices.
@yaakov doe, 3 would be? a chazir
This is a loaded question-you’ll get a better answer somewhere else. Ask a rov, find a sefer that goes through the topic, etc.
@aviradearah Some poskim (including magen avraham) say if the filling is a meal type food (meat, cheese, etc) then it won’t qualify for PH’B. The Taz says like you said.@Yaakovdoe It’s not “being machmir” to wash if the correct bracha is mezonos. The only way to cover all bases is to wash on bread and then eat the correct amount of bread to avoid shailos, but people generally aren’t interested in eating an extra slice or 2 of plain bread (especially on top of the pizza calories). So assuming one is eating just the pizza, the idea of “I’ll wash just to be safe” is wrong.
@Marxist It still depends on how much you eat and how fast.Also, @UJM brings up a great point about the size of 2 slices.
Ujm, i didn’t think of mentioning the size issue – it’s more relevant to volume, because even a small difference in thickness can amount to an extra kezayis
Some people deny this-but it’s true-NOBODY, and I mean nobody-eats pizza for snack. No normal people eat it as a snack. People have seichal and they know that they are eating a meal. A meal doesn’t mean a 4-course-dinner, even just one dish is still considered a meal. So you have to wash on even one slice.
Now, where does making a mezonos come in?
When the pizza is made with fruit juice so it’s not considered dough l’halachah. Most pizza shops don’t use fruit juice, so it’s not a common application for everyone, but for those that do eat from pizza shops that make their pizza with fruit juice, they make a mezonos.I bench on 4 slices
TS Baum
“Now, where does making a mezonos come in?
When the pizza is made with fruit juice so it’s not considered dough l’halachah. ”I dont think this is correct.
Fruit juice or a filling (topping) are two differnt ways to defien pas habah B’kisnin. EITHER defitnion would suffice
If Pizza was made wit hfruit juice or if it had cheese (and not fruit juice) the halacha is the same, if eaten as a snack it is mezonos.
If eaten as a meal Hamotzi (even if made from fruit juice)see Aviras post
“Some people deny this-but it’s true-NOBODY, and I mean nobody-eats pizza for snack”
This is nonsense
Nobody, sorry NOBODY* eats one slice and calls it a meal.In fact years ago I heard from R” Belsky Z”l that even two slices was a snack and that Tow slices wit ha side dish (eg French fries) would be a meal.
See Kashrus Kurrents “PAS HABAH B’KISNIN: PAS OR PAS NISHT” from the Star Kwhere they say similar “Our Kashrus Kurrents pizza poll of current consumer eating habits indicates that the average person consumes one slice of an 18″ pizza (alone, without any sides) as a snack and three slices of an 18″ pizza (alone, without any sides) as a meal. Two slices of an 18″ pizza (alone, without any sides) was questionable. Most pizza shops were in agreement that the average consumer orders 2 slices of pizza with a side dish for dinner.”
(* Nobody Ive met, including my kids once they reach about 8, it is a big planet and I’m sure such poeple exist but there are so few of them that its faitr to say Batlu daatam, so that practically Nobody eats one slice and calls it a meal)
Ubiq; did rav belsky tell you specifically a “side dish”? In yeshiva everyone quoted him as saying “2 slices and even a bite/ma shehu more” would require hamotzi – he wasn’t completely convinced of it in any case, as he told me directly to follow the minhag ha’olam.
He also was wont to say that apple juice makes no difference in the status of dough, and that shu”a is discussing thick juices which make a very significant change in taste and other characteristics of the bread. He said even if the dough had 3/4 apple juice and 1/4 water it would still be hamotzi; he repeatedly told us that mezonos bread is a contradiction in terms, and did not accept any of the marketed mezonos breads as being such.
The phb”k status of pizza stems from its filling, according to rav belsky.
“did rav belsky tell you specifically a “side dish”? In yeshiva everyone quoted him as saying “2 slices and even a bite/ma shehu more””
It wasn’t to me , he said it at a Q/A forum, Ive heard it more than once. He may not have used the words “side dish” he may have said “2 slices and something for example French fries” and I changed that to side dish deffinitly implied more than a “bite” but he didnt specify how many French fries .
My point to TS Baum regarding apple Juice was even assuming it had a significant amount of Juice (a doubtful assertion) that affected the taste (an unlikely assertion) it STILL would require Hamotzi if one was having it as a meal.
Why is there a chumra with respect to a meal and not with respect to a snack? If it is bread,then it is bread and if it is cake then it is cake or babka? Why the confusion?
@shunky, this whole thread is puzzling to me, do you go up to random strangers in the street and ask for medical advice? do you want around with cash and go up to some random person and ask him to invest it for you? then why ask a halacha lmishya question to a bunch of ramdom people online instead of asking your rav who paskens your shalos.
Benephraim,
“If it is bread,then it is bread and if it is cake then it is cake or babka? Why the confusion?”no confusion. It is neither bread nor cake. It is something in between. Therefore it is treated as something in between, so it depends on how it is being eatedn if it is eaten like cake (ie as a snack) then it is treated like cake, if however it is being eaten as a meal then it is treated like bread.
(Cake too if enough eaten and eaten as a meal you may need to wash and bench since cake is also often pas habah bkisnin )
Common saychal
your comment is puzzling to me . “do you go up to random strangers in the street and ask for medical advice?” There have been literally dozens of threads on Covid19 all sorts of topics. Al thsoe are ok. chas veshalom a little torah should be discussed, and you try to shut it down.
You arent interested skip it , that is ok. Why the need to shut down a worthwhile discussionIn the time spent soliciting halachic opinions, “psudo-psaks” and uninformed speculation from the CR talmedei chachaim, you could say hamotzi several times over as well as a few kapital tehillim and perhaps even do chazorah on a blat gemorah. If you don’t value your time, definitely keep on asking questions.
Forgive me u. for the sake of clarity. I rephrase my question. Is it bread or not bread? There are only 2 possibilities as you must concur. If you are not sure you need to establish why you are unsure.
“why ask a halacha lmishya question to a bunch of ramdom people online instead of asking your rav who paskens your shalos.”
Not everyone has a Rav. (I am not saying the OP doesn’t necessarily, just that there are people that don’t)
Ubiq, we’re in agreement that it’s phb”k, which is a category including all sorts of baked goods that aren’t halachikally bread. All of them have the same halacha, which is that one makes mezonos and al hamichya, unless one eats 4 bayim (or other foods together with the mezonos food to that amount).
An interesting shailoh discussed by some achronim is what the halacha is if someone ate cake, then hamentash, then pretzels. He ate bread me’ma nafshach, because one shita’s bread is another one’s phb”k. Before he eats the hamentash, he could say that he holds like the one who says that cake is phb”k, and that hamentash and pretzels are bread. Once he eats the hamentash, he can say he holds like the shita that pretzels are the only thing that’s truly bread, so he can say that he ate phb”k. But once he eats all three, then who would hold he didn’t eat bread? He lechora would have to wash and bentch on the last thing he ate,even if it’s not shiur kevias seudah.
This chumra isn’t mentioned in mishnah berurah as far as i know.
@ubquitin, I would have the same reaction if he posted a medical question, people did training and are experts in both fields
Benephraim
“There are only 2 possibilities as you must concur.”
I do not concur at all.
I am not even sure where you got this idea from.There is a third possibility it is like bread and sometimes requires washing and sometimes doesn’t there are a whole category of foods that all into this group. See Avira’s inital post
Or Search for articles on “PAS HABAH B’KISNIN” The OU, Start K have nive articles. Halichipedia has an excellent very detailed page
Avira
that is interesting , I like it shkoyach*should
“Not everyone has a Rav. (I am not saying the OP doesn’t necessarily, just that there are people that don’t)”
Everyone must have a Rov.
If one doesn’t have one he would act the same way he would if he had no pair of pants.
@marxist, “Not everyone has a Rav. (I am not saying the OP doesn’t necessarily, just that there are people that don’t)”
So what is the solution? ask a bunch of random people online who may or may not know what they are talking about, yup GREAT IDEA!@common saychel
Perhaps by asking random people online one can obtain mareh makomos to investigate as well as being able to hear different opinions on the shayla.
@ujm
“Everyone must have a Rov.”Source?
>> “Everyone must have a Rov.”
> Source?
Aharei Rabim lehatot!
So, at least two.
Marx;. Asei lecha rav!
@ujm
“Everyone must have a Rov.”“Source?”
Pirkei Avos. Common sense. And that’s how Klal Yisroel has always acted for thousands of years.
@ubiquitin
I feel a bit childish saying this, but I wonder: do you see your phone number when you step on a scale?
How can you consider it a snack? If you do, then you mean to say a meal of pizza is 4 or 5 slices?
I’m not sure how that’s possible to even fit in a human stomach without throwing up.
Or maybe you simply have to understand what a snack means and what a meal means.
I guess you send your kids with a few slices of pizza JUST FOR SNACK??? Sounds not right to me, you have to agree.@marxist, that is called draying ah kup not asking a shalah on a halacha lmasah, if he cant find a rov [btw if he is married he better find one ASAP] he should refrain from eating pizza until he finds a rov.
TS Baum
Your whole comment was a bit childish, and doesn’t make a lot of sense .
nonetheless lets explain“do you see your phone number when you step on a scale?”
That would be an uncanny coincidence“How can you consider it a snack?”
Because one slice of pizza is not very filling” If you do, then you mean to say a meal of pizza is 4 or 5 slices?”
This question was strange. I told you what most people considered a meal “and that Two slices with a side dish (eg French fries) would be a meal.” How did you get from there to “4 or 5 slices”?“I guess you send your kids with a few slices of pizza JUST FOR SNACK???”
What? Why? I said one maybe two slices was a snack We are talking about adults. how did you make that leap?
From the OU website:
“Rav Belsky, zt”l said that it is unclear whether pizza is a snack or meal food, but noted that the general custom is to say Mezonos when eating a small amount.
It should be noted that if the pizza dough is fully baked prior to adding the cheese (as is the case with some frozen Pizzas) the bracha would be Hamotzi. When the dough is baked alone, its status at that time is Hamotzi, and that does not change when a filling is added.”It seems, that one is allowed to make a Hamotzi if they wanted to, especially if they were to eat the pizza as a meal.
Personally, I try to wash and make an Hamotzi, its not a big deal and gives us an opportunity to Bentch and thank Hashem for all the good that he bestowed upon us.
CS
“that is called draying ah kup not asking a shalah on a halacha lmasah”
Nu, so what’s the problem? you want him to dray his Rav ah kup? thats not nice.
some people dray ah kup about politics, some about Daylight savings time, and some like disucssing halacha. Fargin. IF it doesn’t interest you feel free to skip this
” if he cant find a rov [btw if he is married he better find one ASAP] he should refrain from eating pizza until he finds a rov.”
That’s ridiculous. If he knows how to learn up a sugya and can come out lemasseh then let him do that.
“Asei lecha rav!”
We don’t pasken straight from Pirkei Avos besides the fact that there are various interpretations as to what it means.Marx, to be a qualified posek, one needs to spend years learning shas and poskim, not reading the Babylonian talmud for 45 minutes every day while drinking coffee .havei mesunim bedin, be diligent in paskenint – ine needs time, not an hour or two of perusing rishonim. One needs to have shimush. Kara veshana velo shemash is an am haaretz. Halacha requires a clear head, free of bias and foreign junk that one absorbs online, in the work place and through media consumption. It also requires a tremendous amount of yiras shomayim.
If someone is missing even one of these things, they cannot rule on any halacha shailos.
I was told once, you have to wash if you eat two slices…
@Marxist, we don’t pasken out own shalos by reading a halacha book or asking a bunch of random people online nor do we do our own root canal by reading a dental textbook.
Assuming he had shimush and learned how to learn and go through a sugya but doesn’t have a Rav now in his current situation why can’t he learn up a sugya? You make it sound like this is some type of dinei nefashos shayla or that he’s paskening for others. Nor is this some super controversial question. Obviously, one has to know one’s own biases but assuming he feels that he is not being biased within the area he’s learning, what’s the issue? Part of the purpose in spending time in a halacha kollel is to gain knowledge on how to pasken even if one ultimately does not become a recognized posek himself.
CS
” we don’t pasken out own shalos by reading a halacha book or asking a bunch of random people online nor do we do our own root canal by reading a dental textbook.”
not every shayla is a root canal.
My point is I’m not sure how you consider pizza a snack. It’s simply not.
FYI, look on google or anything and you’ll see that pizza is NOT a snack. A snack is “what’s eaten between meals”. Any normal person doesn’t eat pizza between meals! It is the meal!
I could suspect the reason why you are saying as you do, is simply because you don’t want to wash.
But I will try to be dan l’kaf zechus that you really, sincerely consider pizza a snack, so you believe that you can make a mezonos.TS, luckily for us, poskim such as mori verabi rav belsky zt”l, didn’t get their definitions of torah concepts by googling things.
@tsbaum
Anecdotally, when I learned in kollel, I had a long commute.
I would often eat dinner more than an hour after finishing kollel.
On multiple occasions when I was feeling very hungry, I’d get a slice of pizza to hold me over until I got home.
I would have done it more frequently but it gets expensive and unhealthy.I think this is a classic example of a snack.
And asking around, I’ve heard numerous people doing the same thing- getting a slice before a long commute home from work etc.
It doesn’t contradict the fact that sometimes I eat pizza for dinner.
When it’s a snack I make mezonos.
When it’s a meal I make hamotzi.
I don’t think this is crazy at all.@shunky being that you are a newbie [I assume] please be more detailed when you start a thread, it looked like you were asking halacha limaysa.
@ubiquitn not every root canal is a shyla.
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