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THe midrash tells us the Homon sold himself to Mordechai as a slave, does that mean that he was partially Jewish as an Eved Canaani (if he had a bris utvilah ?
According to the chasam sofer and many others, yes. Take a look at how he explains that this is what made haman so mad – li higid lo ki hu – haman – yehudi, and the biggest insult to a goy is to call him a yid. My question then is kol mah shekana eved kana rabbo, so klapei shamayim haman bought the yiddin for mordechai – why did HKB”H need our shkalim first?
They weren’t in Eretz Yisrael and eved canaani is only from the seven nations of Canaan
Please, dont believe that every midrash is fact
. They’re notThe Chasam Sofer, that even though the others were able to bow down to Haman, Mordechai could not because Haman was his slave and so people will say that he is bowing down to an idol form Haman was wearing and not giving respect to him. The midrash says that Mordechai actually showed the contract to Haman indicating that he cannot bow down in front of him. They were together in a desert were Mordechai provided bread to Haman if he sells himself as a servant. The Chasam Sofer goes so far to interpret כי הגיד להם אשר הוא יהודי referring to Haman. Mordechai was telling them that he cannot bow down to Haman because he is considered to be a Jew.
Coffee Addict, why are you so sure that it only applies in Eretz Yisroel? The Rambam on eved knaani Avodim 8:9 says, ודין זה בכל זמן אפילו בזמן הזה שהארץ ביד העכו”ם it looks like it applies currently even though they were not in Eretz Yisroel.
The Shulchan Aruch paskens we can have an Eved Knani today in Chutz La’aretz.
Laskern,
From what the rambam says I’m understanding that it applies even when the goyim own Eretz Yisrael bit we still live there and have slaves
Correct me if I’m wrong please
I also just assumed since an ever canaani is called a canaani because it has to be a canaani (or emori…)
Coffee Addict, See Hilchas Avodim in Shulchan Aruch Yorei Deah 267:17 about the rules that he becomes a Jew like a woman.
See also there Siman 3-4 about how the eved has a choice to convert to Judaism.
Rav Moshe’s instructions for adoption mention acquiring a baby as an Eved for a moment.
“Rav Moshe’s instructions for adoption mention acquiring a baby as an Eved for a moment.”
So we see that Rav Moshe holds that we can have an Even Knani today in America regardless of the secular law.
“the rules that he becomes a Jew like a woman.”
What’s the logical reason that Halacha puts an Eved in the same halachic obligations as a woman?
MDG can you give me the source?
Joseph, I think that the same way that a woman is according to the Kol Bo exempt from mitzvas that are time dependent because her responsibility is to her husband, similarly the servant has responsibility towards his master.
Joseph, I think that it is no obligation to have an eved, so דיני דמלכותא דיני applies so you cannot go against the secular laws.
laskern: If MDG accurately cited Rav Moshe, then Rav Moshe permits owning an Eved.
Joseph look at the Bach above 267 starting v’eved an interesting discussion related to now.
Iaskern: I believe MDG is referring to Igros Moshe YD 1:162. It seems that Reb Moshe allows owning an Eved Knani nowadays.
Joseph obviously you did not see the above tshuva where he says clearly that if the government does not allow you, you cannot do it.
The above tshuva gives a means to adopt a non-jewish boy such that when he grows up cannot retract the conversion which the government is ok with.
He makes him eved knaani for a moment in order to free him and since it is temporary the government will not mind.
There’s another tshuva about buying a shifcha from India so that a mamzer can marry her, but I don’t remember where it is offhand.
Reb Moshe in Igros Moshe O”CH 6:2 says something interesting. A woman according to the Rabbenu Taam can make a brocho on a time dependent mitzva, but not an eved because he does not have a
קדושת ישראל.: מכילתא סוף פ’ בשלח
“רבי אליעזר אומר נשבע המקום בכסא הכבוד שלו, שאם יבא אחד מכל האומות (להתגייר-הגר”א) שיקבלוהו, ולעמלק ולביתו לא יקבלוהו, שנאמר ‘ויאמר דוד אל הנער המגיד לו אי מזה אתה ויאמר בן איש גר עמלקי אנכי’ (שמואל ב א יג) .נזכר לדוד באותה שעה מה שנאמר למשה רבינו אם יבא מכל האומות שבעולם להתגייר שיקבלוהו ומביתו (של עמלק-הגר”א) שלא יקבלוהו. מיד ‘ויאמר אליו דוד דמך על ראשך כי פיך ענה בך’. לכך נאמר-מדור דורNow according to the above, are you permitted to own a slave a Ameleki ?And if you do, is there any Gerus involved. I would say he has no Gerus status at all.
Some say that all the assets of Haman really did belong to Mordechai..
In מעוז צור we say רוב בניו וקניניו they say Haman had a shtar engraved on himself. The song seems to indicate that it belonged to Haman.
GOAN: some say that the assets… who is that?
Could be also, הרוגי מלכות, those killed by the monarch, their wealth belongs to the monarch. So Haman’s wealth would be hung together with him. He loses his wealth figuratively.
They say it in regards to how did Mordechai take over Haman’s house (as in the Megillah) Hamans death was מחיית עמלק and part of it is to destroy all his assets (as in rashi and Sifri), they answer that it was really not Haman’s as the above. However not everyone agrees….
GAON, As above that the house belonged to the monarch because he was killed through his verdict is no problem. He was able to give his own house to Esther, as the Megila says clearly that “Achashverus” gave the house to Esther.
When Esther gave Haman’s house to Mordechai it was hers to give not Haman’s anymore. Maov was swallowed through Sichan. It became a new land. Similarly, says the Ben Ish Chay, when we do teshuva we are forgiven because we become a new person not responsible for our old deeds which was done by someone else.
Las,
The above I mentioned I think is לקוטי יהודה in the name of the אמת אמרי.“the house belonged to the monarch”
That is another answer and some question that too, as Mored be’Malchus assets belonging to the king may only pertains to Malchei Yisrael and not to Non-Jewish kings. See below link Rashba that says its not so simple (4th line)
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1376&st=&pgnum=398&hilite=I think in sefer Hamitzvos RS”G of Rav Perlo has a lengthy discussion on that matter of the house…
GAON, What do you do with מעוז צור? It looks like the wealth belonged to Haman before being hanged.
GAON, what do you do with מעוז צור where it seems that Haman owned his wealth before being hanged?
Asides that you can say diff pshatim (I recall seeing years ago something in the sefer Yalkut Ma’am Loaz – if you can get ahold of that let me know if you find anything) , the Ba’al haPiyut (is it a Rishon?) may hold that it pertains to Malchei Akum as well and not only to Yisrael…
According to the Wikipedia:
“Ma’oz Tzur” is thought to have been written in the 13th century, during the Crusades.[1] The first letters of the first five stanzas form an acrostic of the composer’s name, Mordechai (the five Hebrew letters מרדכי). He may have been the Mordecai ben Isaac ha-Levi who wrote the Sabbath table-hymn “Mah Yafit”,[2] or even the scholar referred to in the Tosafoth to Talmud (Bavli) Niddah 36a. Or, to judge from the appeal in the closing verse, he may have been the Mordecai whose father-in-law was martyred at Mayence (now Mainz, Germany) in 1096.
Las,
So it is a Rishon (note – some Piyutim are from the times of the Talmud like haKalir – I recall Tosfos using a Piyut leHalacha) and can very well be he does not go with the Rashba IF pshat is like the above..Maybe the Mordechai ben Hillel the student of the Meharam from Rothenberg who was also a martyr together with his teacher wrote the piyut.
The sefer Mishneh Sochir from Rabbi Yisochor Teichtal hy”d explains the meaning in the stanza with the gemora Megila 15:2 that Haman’s whole wealth was engraved on his heart. So when he was hung, his whole wealth was hung with him.
It says that it refers to the 3rd Crusade 1189-92 Frederick Barbarossa the Red in the last stanza.
“The sefer Mishneh Sochir from Rabbi Yisochor Teichtal hy”d explains the meaning in the stanza with the gemora Megila 15:2 that Haman’s whole wealth was engraved on his heart. So when he was hung, his whole wealth was hung with him.”
FYI – As I stated earlier, I looked up the Yalkut Ma’am Loaz and he brings this very pshat in the name of Rabeinu Dovid HaNagid (ben R Avrohom ben haRambam)…
My Eved Knani escaped. If found please respond. Hashavas Aveida!
If he runs to Eretz Yisroel, he becomes free.
That’s why I’m hoping to recapture him before he gets anywhere near Eretz Yisroel.
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