Walk the girl to the door

Bochur, you are right that SOME things are generational. Good manners however, are not one of those things. Derech Eretz kadma l’Torah, don’t forget. Those girls who say they don’t care, have most likely been brought up without certain social niceties and courtesies. They are likely to be the types of girls who think there is nothing wrong with yapping on their cell phones in a restaurant, or that it’s fine to allow their toddlers to run amok in public places, while they sit and chat with friends.

You’re right, I am in my 50s, but that has nothing to do with the expectation that a boy should treat a girl with thoughtfulness on their date. My Rov ZT”L was a European Rov. I never saw him fail to open the door for his Rebbetzin when I was in their presence. If you think good manners ever go out of fashion, then you should think twice. And so should the girl, because they are losing out by lowering their expectations for their dates ( and potentially future husbands)to treat them with courtesy. Women have gotten used to men being crass and thoughtless, and some girls are just immature and clueless today and think the BOYS will not like them if they expect the boys to be more thoughtful.

I HAVE spoken to many young women about this; to the daughters of my friends, to shul members, etc., and the VAST and overwhelming majority of them think that a guy who doesn’t walk them to their door is a jerk. To be fair to you, not all of them agree on the car door issue, but most felt he should at least open the door when they are getting into the car, but not necessarily when they are getting out. I say go for both. It makes you look good, especially if you do it sufficiently quickly and without fanfare, so the girl does not have that awkward “what should I do” moment. And if their MOTHERS know you are courteous, it scores really big points. JMABO (just my ancient bones’ opinion).

oomis – i don’t think we are disagreeing that both the guy and girl should be nice and courteous. we are disagreeing as to what qualifies as nice and courteous. Why should a girl not be able to say that she DOESN’T appreciate the walk? To classify any one of those girls as “probably such and such a type” is very unfair and judgmental. That is gaavah! What about people (far and middle eastern) who’s custom it is to belch as a compliment to the chef. Yeah, I think it’s gross, but if the guy is otherwise a nice guy, why would you use one (obviously, from this thread) debatable thing to castigate him so fast.

And please don’t bring raayos of courtesy from married people. Married people have to treat each other differently than dating people are allowed to in many instances (not saying that this one is, but it seems some people feel that way). And even if you are right (and I don’t think you are) that walking to the door is common courtesy, at the very least this board has proven that there may be sufficient doubt in the guy’s mind as to what the girl will consider appropriate or appreciated. Considering that, to use this “lack of courtesy” as a basis for labeling the guy a jerk is bigoted and unfair.

Has your husband ever done anything that was discourteous? What was your reaction to it? Why can’t you have a similar reaction to a date? Why just jump to conclusions. Maybe talk about it. I know I have spoken to girls about things they did that I was concerned about (Tznius, for example. I was told by my very frum rosh yeshiva that although tznius is extremely important, you must investigate and see why she isn’t up to the standards you expect. Of course within reason so, no, miniskirts and tank-tops are not OK).

And finally, please address my curious question (This is my third invocation, and your ignoring it means that you either don’t have a good answer or you are ignoring me which is discourteous 😉 ): What are the top 5 things that you think are important to look for in a guy you are dating? And, once again, be specific please. None of “He should be a mentsch” since that is too broad. If you want to make it 10 things so you have more to work with, that’s fine.

@dunno-

“whatever”

That’s not the point-the point is that I have yet to hear of a girl who prefers NOT to have the car door opened. Most don’t care either way.

@oomis-

You seem to be an expert on manners, which is funny because the way I was raised was that the worst thing that you can do to someone is ignore them. Worse than insulting them, because at least you acknowledge them. But than again I’m no gadol in manners like you are.

You don’t think it’s rude to insult the character of a girl who isn’t as exacting and finicky as you are. I would think that she just has different preferences.or at worse is a mevater. But than again I’m no gadol in manners like you are.

iyhbyu

That’s not the point-the point is that I have yet to hear of a girl who prefers NOT to have the car door opened. Most don’t care either way.

I don’t think the Mods will let me post links but look around. There are girls who don’t prefer it.

tbt – because dating shouldn’t be about points. it should be about building a relationship. Yes, sometimes someone does too many repulsive things so you can justify saying “I would rather not be in a relationship with the person”, but at the end of the day, most people don’t fall into such a category.

Just because you found two girls who have a blog doesn’t mean that they constitute a substantial minority. anyways good for them.

“after 34 years of marriage, my husband STILL opens the door for me. “

I take great pride in treating my wife like the royalty she is, but Oomis, your husband takes the cake.

tbt – I understand. I was making a point and used your comment as a springboard. 😉

popa…I have a student who’s a baalas teshuva and she expressed the same sentiment.To quote her,”With feminism,we shot ourselves in the foot”!

@dunno-

If you thought that maybe say that 50 posts ago. = We’ve already given reasons why girls don’t want to be walked to the door(I’m not going to rehash this whole thread) . I’ve yet to see a reason for not having the door opened other than it’s unnecessary which isn’t a reason not to open the door rather it’s a reason not to care.

The fallacy with your logic is that when the sample size is lets say 15 girls, and 7 of them prefer not be walked to the door. than that is a substantial minority (like this coffee room). When the sample size is everyone that I’ve ever spoken to and I’ve heard girls talk about preferring not to be walked to the door, but none who really cared about opening the door, than two girls who wrote a blog isn’t a good sample size.

You obviously still think that walking a girl to the door is the right thing to do. I’m fine with that- but you need to explain yourself as to why. Do you think that there is no substantial minority which prefers not getting walked to the door? Do you think that your opinion is the only one that matters? Do you think that men should have a supernatural ability to “sense” what you appreciate on a first date, as it seems tbt thinks?what is it?

Chivalrous-gracious and honorable toward an enemy,(women) esp. a defeated one, and toward the weak or poor.

I joke I joke, I kid Ikid

@dunno-

That’s why you prefer it, and that is fine, but why is it the “right” thing to do?

I agree with you that the sample size is too small to tell whether it is a clear majority or minority, but I think we can tell that there is a substantial size of each one.

And I also agree it would be nice if we could obtain that trait somehow. it would sure solve a lot of problems.

Dunno

Really?

I’m dating a Girl right now and

doing everything I can to be as

“chivalrous” (seems to be the new

word around here) as possible

and I’m not getting much in return

It goes both ways

A healthy relationship is a

give-and-take

1dayatatime

A relationship is most definitely a give and take, just in different ways. What are you expecting to get in return? I don’t think a girl should be opening the door for a guy but she must be thankful and courteous when he does for her

iyhbyu

Obviously it’s important to act like a mensch. I think acting like a mensch includes chivalrous things like walking the girl to the door. You disagree. Fine. But this conversation is going around in circles.

oomis – you just can’t answer my questions, right?

Oomis

THAT means that I would like to

to get back the-all that I’m

giving

I think I deserve that much

And no, it does not have to mean

that she’s ill mannered. It

could be that she’s has some fears

(number one in dating is fear

of rejection) which may lead her

to behave the way she is

Also, if she’s not so interested

in me, and she’s acting the way

she is, then that could be

ill mannered, because if I’m

giving all I’ve got then I’m

allowed to expect THAT in return

Or maybe she’s just playing it

cool, because she thinks I’m

not so interested

So I guess we shall see

Good luck to you, 1day. A girl who is so insecure and fearful of rejection that she does not know how to say please and thank you, tell her date that she had a good time, hold up her end of a conversation, (if in a more than a three date situation) cannot think of something nice to do for her date, just might be too young to be dating.

“oomis – you just can’t answer my questions, right?” (Bochur 24)

What was the question?

1dayatatime

Good luck! I hope you have clarity making your decision!

As I’ve written before, I’m no so comfortable with being walked to the door. However, when I do get walked to the door, I don’t hold it against him or anything like that. I understand that most guys are just doing what they were told to do in terms of etiquette like this- walk, don’t walk, open, don’t open…. I get that on a date you should be observant of each other and stuff, but c’mon! the poor guy’s just trying to comply with what he was told is society’s standards. I think that any girl who is taking such a strong stand cuz he did/didn’t do something small like that needs to understand that there are more important things…at least I would like to think there are!!!!

iyhbyu

No.

oomis

Good Question- Because when I post from my Blackberry, the sreen only allows me a certain amount of room to see what I’m posting, more than that I would not see what I’m writing, so when I hit enter it goes to the next line where i can see what I’m writing.

I’m a poet

And I didn’t even know it

“Also, exactly what is it that you are expecting that you are not getting? Could you be clear about that? “

Perhaps a bit of warmth, or that I should feel that she’s interested

Either way, it’s all good, the RBS”O has a plan for me and I need to just keep on davening that HE should point me in the right direction.

I wasn’t really asking for advice, I was simply pointing out, based on previous posts on this thread, that it’s not all black and white and each situation needs to be discussed with a mentor, situation by situation

We’ve created a script about what needs to be done in our lives and how we think we should behave, shidduchim, yeshivas, that we forget that we are all individuals, with individual characteristics, personality, ideas, goals, hashkafahs, etc. that we must remember that about ourselves and each other, we are not objects. We should do the right thing, follow the Torah and seek and have for ourselves a Rebbi, mentor that can guide us.

Ad bias goel tzedek….amen

shmooze

@dunno-

Well that is what you are saying when you say that it is the “right” thing to do to walk to the door. You are saying forget those girls in group 1, only do what girls in group #2 like. And it’s okay to not care about those girls because it’s “chivalrous.”

iyhbyu: May I mix in over here?

I think your being a little factitious over here. dunno stated explicitly that this is what she prefers . She said she understands the other side. But, this is how she feels.

truth be told

Thanks for the backup 🙂