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awkward awkward awkward!!! lol but thanks for asking 😉
(and yes i am only speaking for myself)
iyhbyu
Nice of you to ask…it shows you really care. I would find that pretty awkward too (it is a little better than “Should I walk you?”, though).
yeah I thought it would be better, but I guess still too awkward. Well that leaves us back at square one. There seems to be two very different “shitas” from women, and there is no real way of knowing if your date appreciates it. I would say the solution would be for the women who do want it, to stop caring but I know that won’t happen 🙂
Ah, Shidduchim and how I love it.
be good: You make some valid points. However, you may be turning a trivial matter into a HUGE matter. Aside from the fact that it may not be wise, it has a downside. When we play up trivialities we usually end up downplaying important stuff.
“I can’t believe nobody ever told him to walk a girl to the door”.
asking is very awkward. either do or don’t, but dont ask. once a guy asked me if he should hold the door open for me. very weird! i dont really care if u do or dont, but dont ask me! when i see uncertainty in a man, that is worse for me than if he holds the door open or walks me anywhere. make your decisions and do it. its the way you do it also that either makes it awkward or not. there are ways to be smooth, you know? if you have a bit of class, you’ll pleasantly walk with your date to the door (avoiding all tznius issues this way), wish her a good night, wait till she gets in and leave! dont make it a big deal and dont make it awkward. come on, i can think of more awkward things in dating than this.
I don’t think asking is so bad, if you have reason to believe she’d prefer you don’t walk her in.
This is such an odd thread.
I completely cannot relate to the awkwardness argument. I have done it plenty of times, and never felt in the least awkward. You simply continue speaking until you get to the door, then you say good night, and that’s it.
Maybe if the whole date was awkward and you stopped talking 15 minutes before getting home I could understand.
iyhbyu
Lol. Women will never give up on chivalry 🙂
Mods
Writing edited in that spot on popa’s post made it quite clear what it said 🙂
You walk the girl to the door, tell her pleasantly that you had a nice time, and wish her a good night. Hopefully, SHE has the class and good manners to say thank you for an enjoyable evening (more important, hopefully it WAS an enjoyable evening). In any case, one can never be too menschlech. And that goes both ways.
@dunno-
Well I wasn’t asking to give up on chivalry, just getting walked to the door.
Obviously there is no clear “right” way of doing things. Some girls think you’re a slob if you don’t walk to the door, some prefer it but it’s not a big deal, others hate it. Some think it’s a good idea to ask, others think it’s “awkward awkward awkward.”
My point is that you women aren’t exactly giving us a clear message and it’s sort of unfair to blame us here.
I’m thinking the best thing for me is to not do it, (my reasoning being Shav V’al T’aaseh) and if a girl is so nitpicky that she will dump a guy for not walking her to the door, well she probably wasn’t meant for me anyway.
Oomis perfectley said!!!
How about the shadchans ask do u want him to walk u to the door?
Its so not awkward walking to the door, u talk like u were talking before. And when u get to the door say “thank u I had a nice time….”
I understand those who say they don’t want their neighbors to see….I never really thought about it because I don’t really have that problem….
iyhbyu
Whatever floats your boat.
if ur getting out to walk her to open her door, its kinda weird not to walk her at least to the steps or gate…dont u think?!?! (unless u just reach over and push the door open!??!?)
I’m afraid to comment on this thread.
The first girl I dated I walked to the door. She in no uncertain terms told me to stay in the car! Next girl (a few dates later) asked me if I “was a stalker”. That cured me and over all changed my perspective. I would feel funny if someone leaped to open doors for me and followed me to my door! The average (bais yakov) girl probably feels the same. I did get a few questions throughout my dating career if i didnt open doors beshitah to which i would answer “no, I just want you to be comfortable”. I found that girls responded realy well to that and would launch into dating storys about the guy that grabbed their coat… Guys, do whatever feels natural. Most importantly, pay attention to what your date is saying, show a litle empathy and understanding. for example, if you pick her up right after work or school then get her something to eat (nothing fancy. just food!). Just be an overall mentsch and dont worry about the dating rules. and girls, leave the guys alone! Yeah, the average yeshiva guy willl NOT be suave and slick!
The first girl I dated I walked to the door. She in no uncertain terms told me to stay in the car! Next girl (a few dates later) asked me if I “was a stalker”. “
Both of these girls acted imamturely and showed extremely poor manners. STALKER???????? For acting like a decent human being???? What are these girls being taught in Yeshivah?
oomis – once again, you are flipping out about something that is chivalrous (by definition – something a knight would do – lifnim mishuras hadin) and you are not even giving the girl the right to decide if she appreciates it. I am sure the girl was asking if he was a stalker as a joke. Stop with the rules. Why can’t dating be 2 people who just want to try to be themselves, develop a relationship and not be looking to follow every rule about dating? I guarantee that half the rules go out the window when they’re married anyway (which may or may not be ok. I don’t think it’s mandatory for a husband to open the car door for his wife). these chivalrous acts are not prerequisites for being a decent human being. And may I ask, what would you do if your husband acted immaturely or not nice or not chivalrous? divorce him for being a bulvan?! Or maybe (and I know this sounds crazy) TALK ABOUT IT WITH HIM! Be a mature adult and realize that even if he does something horrible like drip mustard on his tie (never happened to me personally but I realize it may b a turnoff), he may still be a good person who wants to grow and will treat his wife like a wonderful aishes chayil provided that she clue him into the fact that she appreciates certain things. Maybe he is ignorant of the walk to the door! Is that so terrible? Many guys are ignorant of many things before their Chosson Shmooze and the first few months of marriage. And guess what?! so are girls!! It’s not like the fact that he didn’t walk you to the door is an indicator that he is abusive or anything close to that. As we have seen on this board there are many reasons he may not walk her to the door. Most of them have nothing to do with him being selfish or uncaring. I would love to know what your top 5 important things are to look for when dating a guy, oomis. And be specific, please. Don’t tell me “that he should be a mentsch”, because that is a broad statement that has many possible meanings.
bochur24: Hello. I wouldn’t blame all on chivalry. I find it to be part of a certain respect and consideration. Have you ever had the opportunity to drive a Rov, Rebbe or Rosh Hyeshiva? I have. And I always got out and walked them inside. Was never told to. If I would have asked if its necessary, they would have said no. I just thought its the proper way to display respect.
No, no, I’m not turning girls into rabbits or whatever, but it is a sign of respect. Again, no biggie if it’s not done.
truth be told – I agree with you 100% (and yes, I have had the opportunity, b”H) but the most important line you said was the last one.
@cshapiro-
Please don’t tell me that you wait for the guy to open your door to get out of the car?!
@truthbetold-
I like your analogy, and I actually like this whole dialog, but should guys start asking “would Rivkie like a soda?” too? That is how a Rosh Yeshiva should be spoken to. Obviously there is a difference.
I honestly don’t understand how anyone can still be upset with a guy for not walking them to the door after reading through this thread. No one has yet given me a solution to my lack of mind-reading ability, and Dunno, you obviously disprove of my Shav V’al Taaseh approach. So are you expecting too much? Do you think that your preferences are the “right” ones so everyone should acquiesce to your demands at the expense of those who prefer not to be walked to the door?Or do you perhaps have another solution?
iyhbyu
I wouldn’t call it disapproving. You don’t need my permission. I don’t know if I’m right or not; I just feel that walking the girl to the door shows chivalry as does opening the car door for her. From your other post you truly seem to want to do the right thing but aren’t sure what it is. As we both saw from this board there’s a difference of opinion so I don’t know what to advise you. I know that it’s definitely something I appreciate as do many of my friends.
Yes, after parking a girl did wait for me to come around and open the car door. Very weird.
Next girl (a few dates later) asked me if I “was a stalker”.
Yes, that proves that women are crazy, and when they accuse men of threatening them, they are just making a big deal out of nothing. Women are always making a big deal out of nothing.
Yes, after parking a girl did wait for me to come around and open the car door. Very weird.
I never wait for the guy to open it when we get out of the car. Once a guy told me “oops, I was supposed to open that for you!”
I’m not asking for permission. You were pretty even keeled from the get-go, and I guess you’re just saying that you appreciate it and that’s fair. However there are those who came on this thread vehemently opposed to boys not walking their date to the door. I think thatt shows selfishness. Those that jumped to that conclusion thought “this is what I like, therefore he did something wrong by not walking a girl to the door.” without thinking about it from the guys perspective. I’m fine with “this is what I like, but if he doesn’t do it I can’t exactly blame him”
I’m not seeking permission. I’m looking for those who were so strong with their words <cough(oomis)> to admit they were a bit harsh. I think this was a very productive thread and both genders opened each other’s eyes a little bit.
Funny, by Chasidim they have none of these issues. Meeting takes place in girl’s house (maybe HE get’s walked to the door – maybe not – no prob), no problem about where to go out, alot of extra anxiety simply falls away. Generally no communication during engagement (no one put on the spot – words we’ll have to eat the rest of our marriage), mixed head-table (Uh Oh – what do I talk / joke about for the rest of our wedding). Then the issue of finances – I think they have it easier – mostly a joint affair.
exactly as dunno said…ive dated guys who jump out and open the door, pull out the chair for me, take my coat, i guess i just date classy guys what can i say?!?! i dont wait for it, its kinda a given…
So I was wondering if it is normal in some circles to open the door for her when you get out of the car also.
So I googled “dating etiquette”.
Guess which website was the third one on the list?
(And yes, it is normal to open the door when you get out of the car also among some people.)
Thats all well and nice that guys do that, however for the guy to open the door when you LEAVE the car, requires him to open his door, close it, and walk around the car and for you to wait there and do nothing all the while.It doesn’t matter whether or not he is going to do it. It’s that you are asking him to do it.
And while I couldn’t care in the least about actually opening the door, if she sits there and waits like she expects it, that would be a red flag for me.
i really think that opening the car door on the way out is not at all necessary. at all. its not even polite, its like, trying too hard. im all for menchlichkeit, chivalry, whatever. i dont think this falls into that category. its no longer a show of etiquette and politeness, its just way over the edge, u know?
iyhbyu: To you it would be a red flag. Fine. Nothing wrong with that.
Just as no two couples have exactly the same relationship, so too do no two potential couples have exactly the same courtship.
iyhbyu
Do you open the door when getting into the car?
iyhbyu:
According to the website I read, it is common dating etiquette among the gentiles to open the door for the female when getting out of the car.
It is quite likely that some frum circles do that also.
If the girl was used to that, I don’t know why you would consider it a bad thing for her to expect.
hmm, any other pointers from the gentiles that we could introduce into some frum circles??
shlishi:
Don’t be ridiculous.
I wasn’t advocating adopting the custom. I was responding to posters who felt the girl was being not nice by waiting for him. I am pointing out that if she is used to it, there is nothing wrong with her expecting it.
@dunno-
Yes
@popa-
I don’t know how she would be used to it. I’m not saying that she is doing something wrong at all. It’s just that kind of thing is very against my nature.
iyhbyu
The out of curiosity, why do you think that is so different than walking a girl to the door?
Bochur, I try hard not to flip out about anything. Try and do the same. 🙂
BTW, after 34 years of marriage, my husband STILL opens the door for me. EVERY time. believe me, most women would be happy if their husbands showed them the same consideration, or at least, wanted to.
Many guys are ignorant of many things before their Chosson Shmooze and the first few months of marriage. And guess what?! so are girls!!”
And why exactly have their fathers not set a better example for them by treating their mothers with courtesy, and why have their mothers failed to teach them social niceties? Your last line, is exactly why I admonished both the guys AND the girls.
My sons would never fail to show derech eretz to a date, and my daughters have never failed to say thank you and have a good night, even when the date was less than enjoyable. Is it REALLY sticking in your craw to open a car door and walk a girl to her door?
cshapiro- I was at a restaurant recently and I saw two people on a date. The guy was at least in his fifties -I don’t know how old the woman was but not much younger. She actually had him help her with her coat when they were leaving. I don’t know if this is ossur or not, but most men would never do this. I don’t think chivalry should be a given on a frum date because then the lines between chivalry and halacha become blurred. Adherence to halacha is utmost.
They don’t know how to operate a door?
oomis
You’re a saint
You’re a saint “
Halevai 😉
@dunno-
Because I have yet to hear about a girl b’davka preferring that her door not be opened. I really thought we were making progress. I guess not.
@oomis-
I would appreciate it if you would address my points.
iyhbyu
No we were. I’ve just read online (okay, blogs) where some girls said that it’s a stupid thing to do since they can open it themselves. You obviously know what side I’m on. I was just curious what your take is.
oomis – this thread has shown that it is not COMMON courtesy since it seems there are quite a few girls who dislike it. saying thank you after a date IS common courtesy. No, it doesn’t stick in my craw so much to do it, but it sticks in my craw when it seems like that’s a huge factor. It shouldn’t be. If your husband were exactly the same as he is but didn’t open the door for you, I am sure you would still have a happy marriage. and you didn’t answer my questions. 1) Why can’t she bring up an issue bothering her? I think to dump him based on this factor alone would be ridiculous. 2)list the 5 most important things to look for in a guy while dating. and again, be specific.
and oomis, 34 years of marriage (BA”H) would put you at least in your 50s. I would like to point out that there are things which were done in the times you were dating that were considered the regular thing to do but today are not. For example (and one of my mother’s friends and a number of other people flipped out almost angrily when they heard this), it is not considered so common to call the girl before the first date today. I have asked many of the girls I dated if they prefer to get a call (just my own personal census taking) and almost all have said they would not. They say it’s uncomfortable and are perfectly happy to just go on the date. People from your generation are mortified by this sometimes. This could be a generational thing and perhaps you should ask (at least 30) girls you know (who aren’t in your immediate family) who are in the parsha to tell you what they prefer in terms of chivalry so you can get an idea of what is expected today.
what do u mean bachur24, i like talking to a guy on the phone cause u get a better feel of who he really is. he may sound perfect on paper as do most people but then in person its another story. also references as we know beat around the bush and are always biased since its their friend, rebbe, etc. i said no to a guy after talking on the phone with him…or should i say he was the one talking for 3 hours straight about himself, at the end of the conversation I was like, u know i have to think about it and get back to you…
also when you talk on the phone you can plan the first date together so this way if he says u wanna go to starbucks or a lounge u can say which u would prefer and then dress appropriately….
cshapiro – I didn’t say no girls like it. I said that most of the girls I have asked said they prefer not to. Also, there are a number of reasons I don’t like it. 1) I am very comfortable in person when I can see how the person feels about what I am saying but not on the phone. I need to know the person at least a little to feel comfortable on the phone so I don’t think you are getting an accurate feel of who I am on the phone. 2) I think you should get the entire picture of the person instead of just hearing them. Someone may say something that sounds weird or may turn you off on the phone (but in person you may be able to see the person’s facial expressions when they said it and realize that it was an innocuous statement) and then you have a bad impression of them. 3) OK. This one is something that I know guys would probably understand but not necessarily girls. A person may have an unattractive voice and then you go in with negative feelings. 4) a person may sound great on the phone and then your expectations are high but when you get on the date its a big drop off because of how they look, how they are dressed, what their smile looks like, etc… I think it’s better to get the full picture all at once. for the same reason, by the way, I am against looking at pictures before the date. you don’t get the whole person.
I have mixed feelings. I don’t necessarily want a guy to walk me to my door because I have nosy neighbors. On the other hand, I don’t like when he sits in the car and watches me walk to the door. Given the choice, I prefer being walked to the door.
Guys have said to me: ‘Can I walk you to the door?’ and I say ‘sure- thanks for asking!’ If a girl isn’t comfortable with it, she can say so, and the guy still gets points A) for offering and B) for showing sensitivity and asking whether she is comfortable with it.
I think that’s great. A guy who did that would definitely earn points. If he said, “May I walk you to the door?” he would get even more points.
I heard from a rebbitzen that when she went on the first date with her husband he walked her to the door. On the second date he didn’t, so she figured he wasn’t interested. She expected to be walked to the door because that’s what she saw in movies. He didn’t go to movies, so he had no idea. It turns out he walked her to the door the first time because it was raining and he had the umbrella.
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