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oomis – mw13 pretty much summed up what i was going to say. At the most, not walking a girl to the door is a violation of not subscribing to a chivalrous idea. It is not boorish in any way. lack of chivalry is not boorish. I think the distinction would be what you would do for anyone else who is not a date. Would you drop off a friend and just watch from the car to make sure he/she got in? I think most people would say yes. Again, we’re not talking about waiting for her heels to hit the curb and then zoom off. The reason you should bring it up and allow him to explain (if it bothers you so much) is that he may have a valid reason like tznius (which you may not like or agree with but it is a reason that certainly takes him out of the category of someone who will treat you poorly after marriage based on how he treats you now). Also, if you can’t bring up issues that bother you and give him a chance to talk it out, how are you expecting to deal with it after marriage?
popa_bar_abba:
“Yes, and if there is an issur here, it is gilui arayos.
Lo sikrivu is generally considered to be yehareg v’al yaavor.”
Really? I was always under the impression that the only thing that is assur is the actual maseh of giluy arayos… As I recall the Gemara even says a woman does not have to give up her life because she is “karka bi’oilam” and (without getting too technical) is not doing a maseh per say.
Btw, rereading my previous comment I realized that the “Um…” could be taken as sign of a condensing tone, instead of the confused tone it was meant to convey. I apologize if it was taken wrongly.
bochur24:
Thank you for the elaboration.
mw13 – I believe it absolutely is a chossid shoiteh. There is risk of serious injury here and there would be no chibah involved. One final thing: In the second or 2 that it takes for her to fall, he may be so caught up in trying to be careful about negiah that he may not have enough time to allow his intellect to kick in and save her. Doesn’t make it right, but I think I could understand it unless he justifies it afterward with the excuse of negiah.
edited
mw:
The gemara discusses a case where the doctors say the guy will die unless he looks at her, and says; “yamus v’al taamod l’funuv aruma”.
I don’t have the cite, but you can probably google it.
popa
Did that seriously happen to you?
oomis1105
I wouldn’t go as far as to say the guy is acting boorishly if he doesn’t walk a girl to the door. I guess some people have a Rav who find it to be a problem of tznius.
dbwcbb
Speak for yourself. Like tumid bsimcha, I also know LOTS of girls who would prefer the guy to walk them to the door.
bochur24
“Would you drop off a friend and just watch from the car to make sure he/she got in? I think most people would say yes.”
The way you treat a date should be very different than how you treat a friend…
@oomis-
” It is sad if a guy (I am not talking about you) does not on his own realize that it is proper, considerate, thoughtful, and simple menschlechkeit to get out of the car,walk a girl to her door “
I guess I’m a sad case, because I don’t understand why it is simple menshlechkeit to do so. The best that was explained to me, earlier on the thread, is that some girls just feel protected when it is done, despite there really being no logic behind it. And that’s fine and I would do it if all girls felt that way, but it seems that there is a big split. But either way you seem to have very strong words, would you care to explain why you feel that it is so necessary?
“and see her safely inside”
I would definitely agree with you that it is a complete lack of manners to not make sure she is safely inside, but that can be done without walking her the ten feet to her door.
dunno:
No.
since most girls are probably uncomfortable being walked to the door (think of all the neighbors), what is the guy supposed to do EVEN if he wanted to, considering she may not want to be walked to the door (like so many girls above have said)?
dunno – I agree. it should. what I was saying is that if the person had a reason of tznius, and what he did do would be considered fine in a non date situation, it really shouldn’t be that big of a deal. And even if the tznius was not a factor, since it would be acceptable in another situation other than dating, it should be given a conversation to talk about why she felt bothered and allow him to explain.
bochur24
I see what your saying. Still, when a guy walks me to the door his ratings go up a few notches 🙂
bochur24:
“I believe it absolutely is a chossid shoiteh. There is risk of serious injury here”
Risk of injury is not the same as certain death. And besides,unless she’s at the top of a flight of stairs the chance of a serious injury is not to high.
“and there would be no chibah involved”
Now there’s the issue. I’ve never looked into the particulars of shomer negiah, and I’m honestly not sure exactly what the halachos of non-chibah touching are.
mw13 – sorry, I am not such a tzaddik that I can justify allowing a person to be severely injured for my so called frumkeit. I think it would be a shtus to not save her. Also, I want to say that (without getting into particulars) I was on a date where I had to touch for a safety issue. The girl felt very awkward to say the least. I felt horrible that I made her feel that way and apologized profusely to the point of pretty much crying. However – and I told her this – I didn’t regret it one bit and I would have done it again. I even told my rebbi about it the next day.
edited
I was going to ignore the whole “let a girl fall if she slips,” because I thought it was a joke. The very definition of a chasid shoteh. Ask any Rov, I personally heard a Rosh Yeshiva talk about the time he helped an old lady walk across the street and the looks that he got. That is basic menchlichkeit.
if it makes the girl uncomfortable, it is not worth it. she may find it a tznius problem, as others indicated. or otherwise be embarassed. walking her to the door may factor in to her not wanting to go out with him again.
tumid bsimcha
100% right!
tumid bsimcha: Many girls feel embarrassed being seen dating or would otherwise like to keep it quiet. It is proper to walk her back, only if she would appreciate it. So a potential loss is involved. Just have to try and be atuned.
I, for one, can’t imagine why a girl would want her neighbors to know she was out on a date, prior to a very serious stage. Certainly not something that brings brocha.
bochur24 and iyhbyu:
You can tut-tut and claim the moral high ground from today till tomorrow; but if you can not answer me with a halachic argument, I stand by my previous comments.
truth be told
Neighbors can also see when they walk out of the house together when leaving on the date. Just saying…
But certainly, the less people know, the more brocha can exist.
Oh, and thanks for saying!
truth be told
I don’t think any girl out there wants to be walked back by a guy to impress the neighbors. I could be wrong but it just doesn’t sound right.
“But certainly, the less people know, the more brocha can exist.”
I don’t think dates should be discussed besides with relevant people precisely because of that reason. (And for the fact that it’s too gossip-y for me)
dunno: I hope You’re right.
i agree with dunno,
its just a mentschluch thing to do.
a guy should always see the girl to her door, apartment and/or house.
make sure she enters and is safe.
“lack of chivalry is not boorish”
Yep, it really is. Especially with a date whom you are presumably trying to impress with the idea that you would be potentially a loving and considerate husband. If you cannot be bothered to take one minute of your precious time to walk her to her door and see her safely in, why on earth should she ever believe you would take more of your precious time to be a good and considerate husband and father? Sorry fellas, you will never win with me on this one!!!!!! And you make it worse every time you try to come up with some rathionalization for the boorishness.
A rov who would use TZNIUS as a justification for not being a mensch, should maybe talk to another rov and get a different perspective. The only exception to this inyan is if a guy absolutely cannot get a parking spot anywhere and cannot leave the car standing where it is, but he should still get out of the car and watch her get inside her house or apartment door. Being a gentleman is part of derech eretz.
oomis1105: I realize I lost this one with you before I started, but, may I ask you a couple of questions.
Lets say a fine guy, for instance a mathematician with a squeaky voice, goes out with a girl. when he brings her home, she asks him to let her out so she can take a short-cut to her house. How do you think the guy felt? Do you think this guy will now think twice before getting out of the car and walking another girl in?
Do you think that girls behavior may not have been all that refined either?
I posted my opinion, for all its worth, right at the beginning of this thread that its the right thing for a guy to walk her back. However, I would never consider it boorish. I just wonder if you consider this girls behavior to be boorish. And if so, just as she was able to do teshuvah, and come around to be a wonderful person, maybe these guys can as well.
What do you think oomis1105?
ATTENTION BOYS: you are NOT a bus service!!! Get yourself out of the car and walk the girl to the door!!! Once or twice a boy didn’t walk me to the door (I took it as no one ever taught them to) and I felt like I was back in school with the bus dropping me off in front of my house!! Not to mention its so awkward walking to the door by yourself and he’s watching.
passion4music is right. Besides for the fact that we want to be walked, it’s really annoying to know that he’s watching every step I make. Talk about awkward….
yup thats there chance to check you out…..once a guy called me to tell me he was outside, i walked out and he was standing a house a way with his arms crossed leaning against his car watching my every step, needless to say it was our first and last date…bh it was short too cause i was ready to ditch when he got up to use the bathroom :)) but of course i am too polite to do so…
but as far as walking to the door…i think in flatbush they think u dont want to be ‘seen’ but then why are u taking me out to sunflower or renaissance!?!
oomis – like i said, I walk the girl to the door but I don’t think it is boorish not to. I am sure there are some guys who don’t do it because they are boors. However, if the guy was told by a rebbi to not do it since it is a tznius issue (whether you, the posek hador, oomis1105, disagrees or not), the guy is not being boorish by not doing it. I am sure it makes the girl feel good to be walked to the door. And what if it makes her feel good to get a good-night kiss? should he do that? after all, most people in the world (goyim, but the walking to the door is also something that started with them; most likely in the hopes of kissing the girl good night at the door or being invited in for a cup of coffee) think a good night kiss is very chivalrous. I understand that you don’t want to back down on this one but there are numerous things that a girl or guy PREFERS on a date which, in their absence, don’t qualify the offender as a boor. Again, why not wait and be a mentsch yourself by asking him politely on a 3rd or 4th date why he didn’t do it? After all, when you get married, whether you are a guy or girl, there will be times your spouse will displease you in ways far more offensive than not walking to the door (I repeat, making sure she is safely inside is MANDATORY because of safety). How will you handle these offenses then? better learn how to have a conversation now.
Also, to all those that say it is more awkward to know the guy is watching every step to the house, I hear you. Everyone feels different about it and I think the right thing to do is (assuming no other mitigating circumstances exist), do what you think will make the other person feel good.
attention boys: we are NOT babies!!! stay in the car and we can walk ourselves to the door!!! once or twice a boy walked me to the door and I felt like I was back in kindergarten and the bus monitor walked me to my door!! our mommies dont hold our hands outside anymore!! not to mention its so awkward being walking to your own door by a boy.
Cshapiro: u r hysterical!!!!! 🙂
Shlishi-to each his own I guess!
Thank you shlishi.
dunno: I’m glad to see this side of the advocates. I assume and hope your side is greater, but from another post we clearly see the other side does exist.
As for the general question of this thread, I agree with Popa that watching a girl walk lacks in tznius. (A guy could look in the direction without focusing his eyes on the girl.)
truth be told
We all know that’s not gonna happen – if the guy stays in the car he’s watching her every move.
@dunno, cshapiro
I have not walked any girls to the door, and I am honestly mortified that you think that every guy is “checking you out.” I don’t know if you need to get over yourselves or what, but I can tell you honestly that I have never done that. I’m usually thinking about the date and looking at the door to make sure she gets in.
@passion, oomis, and health.
Obviously judging by the diversity of reactions there is no consensus from all women on whether they want to be walked to the door. So for you to have such strong reactions is completely unwarranted. Finally passion4 came up with a decent reason on why they wish to be walked to the door (she feels like every step she takes is being watched)which I understand. However, in the interim, someone came up with a very valid reason why some girls Don’t want to be walked to the door, and that is they don’t want the neighbor’s to see more than they have to that she is on a date. So considering everything are men supposed to be mind-readers? or do you want us to ask you if you want to be walked to the door? because those seem to be the only two options.
iyhbyu – bravo!
shlishi
I walk all the girls to the door
By one girl i got feedback at how impressed she was, as i was the only guy who walked her to the door.
IMHO it’s basic respect
iyhbyu
I have not walked any girls to the door, and I am honestly mortified that you think that every guy is “checking you out.” I don’t know if you need to get over yourselves or what, but I can tell you honestly that I have never done that. I’m usually thinking about the date and looking at the door to make sure she gets in.
I don’t think that’s the norm.
So considering everything are men supposed to be mind-readers? or do you want us to ask you if you want to be walked to the door? because those seem to be the only two options.
Please don’t ask! That’s just weird! What girl would say yes to that??
People we’re not mind readers, we’re just trying to do the right thing
This is why we shouldn’t pay attention to dating related topics. From one end we hear that it’s nice to walk the girl to the door, on the other we see girls complaining about it
…… if you do ….. if you don’t
i think his point was that of course he won’t ask. and just so you know, When I started dating, for tznius reasons I didn’t walk the girl to the door (my rebbi told me not to and he got tremendous feedback from some mothers of girls who’s daughters went out with guys in the yeshiva that it should be done, so he gave in) and I never “checked out” anyone. I even looked at my steering wheel and monitored the girl’s progress up the stairs out of my peripheral vision and then checked to see when she got inside.
What’s the problem, she dosen’t know where her house is?
@dunno-
Obviously I was being facetious and that is my point. Since we aren’t going to ask what are we supposed to do? and I honestly don’t know how you would know what the norm is. I guarantee you that the large majority of guys who wait in the car don’t purposefully do it to “check out” a girl. It’s either for tzniyus reasons, they feel it’s awkward, or they think the girl doesn’t want to be walked in herself (or at least doesn’t know). Nothing sinister.
I agree with sac- it seems too obvious to figure out who this couple is and a lot of people know them. Considering it is motsei shem rah (NOT TRUE) maybe those posts should be taken down.
Obviously I was being facetious and that is my point. Since we aren’t going to ask what are we supposed to do? and I honestly don’t know how you would know what the norm is. I guarantee you that the large majority of guys who wait in the car don’t purposefully do it to “check out” a girl. It’s either for tzniyus reasons, they feel it’s awkward, or they think the girl doesn’t want to be walked in herself (or at least doesn’t know). Nothing sinister.
I don’t think it’s being sinister. I think it’s just natural that the guy will watch the girl make her way to the door instead of staring at the wheel. If you do that, great. And again, I will never say no to a guy just because he doesn’t walk me to the door. However, it’s something I would prefer.
Yochie,
Good point-She’s so excited from the date that we need to remind her where she lives:)
Here are my 2 cents worth:
1) I think halachically and just basic menshlichkeit-wise to just get out of the car and walk her. There is nothing halachically different walking her to the door as there would be walking around with her on a date and it irks me to no end that there are guys out there that would use halacha as an excuse for laziness and rudeness.
2) It makes me feel respected and valued when the guy walks me to the door. Irrespective of whether he/I want to go out again.
3) The feeling when the guy doesn’t walk me to the door is really awful. They range anywhere from, ‘I can’t believe nobody ever told him to walk a girl to the door’ to ‘wow, I guess he’s really lazy/ can’t wait to get out of here/ I’m obviously not worth his time’, O and the really awkward feeling you get when they sit in the car watching you walk in…
5) If a guy isn’t sure whether a girl feels comfortable being walked to the door, JUST ASK!!! Guys have said to me: ‘Can I walk you to the door?’ and I say ‘sure- thanks for asking!’ If a girl isn’t comfortable with it, she can say so, and the guy still gets points A) for offering and B) for showing sensitivity and asking whether she is comfortable with it.
6) I also think it allows for a certain role- appropriate behaviour which is good for fledgling relationships in dating. The guy likes to feel like the man in the relationship, and letting him walk you to the door will let him feel like your ‘protector’.
When you let a guy feel like a man, and you make a point of appreciating whatever it is he does for you on the date (holding the door/ paying for your drink/ walking you to the door) he A) feels good about himself, B) feels like a man which helps him see you in a feminine light as you are accepting whatever he is giving you. This enforces the different roles men and women play in relationships and this is one reason these type of gestures are important parts of courting.
For the guys out there that do/did walk their dates to the door- how did that make you feel? how did you perceive your date afterwards?
edited
oomis1105:
“To not even get out of the car is to be an absolute bulvanish naar.”
“But noch die tzi to try and JUSTIFY such boorishness??? Oy Vey!”
“Sorry fellas, you will never win with me on this one!!!!!! And you make it worse every time you try to come up with some rathionalization for the boorishness.”
I truly do not understand how you can bash and blast all those who do not walk their dates to the door like this. Weren’t you just one week ago (in the “tznius to wear skirts that just hit the knee or are above the knee?” thread) saying about how nobody should ever judge or bash somebody else, ever? Why are you so tolerant of those who dressed against the halacha, yet so intolerant of those who choose not to walk their dates to the door? What happened to “don’t judge”, “different strokes for different folks”, etc? Why are you being so judgmental now?
@be good-
good points. That seems like a good solution-
asking “Can I walk you to the door?”-
So can I ask the woman in this thread if they would like that or would you find that awkward?
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