V'nishmartem Meod L'nafshoseichem

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  • October 21, 2014 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #613963
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Buried deep in the middle of the smoking thread, I posed a question and got no responses, so I’ll assume that it was because no one noticed it. So I will quote the question here:

    “How did this pasuk get co-opted as the source to stay away from danger. The pasuk is talking about avodah zarah, and the various midrashim and Torah commentators speak about it in that context. I have not seen anywhere in Chazal or Rishonim where this pasuk is the source for this issur. The closest thing that I have seen would be the Gemara in Berachos 32b and Tosafos in Shavuos 36a. The Maharsha in fact points this out in the Gemara in Berachos. The earliest sources that I have seen use this pasuk as the source are the Rashbash in siman 1 and the Sefer Charedim. Then suddenly when we get to the late Acharonim, I have seen this pasuk being used by many of them as such a source. Anyone have any idea how this happened, or know of an earlier source that uses this pasuk?”

    This was asked in response to “The smoker is violating open halachos about “Venishmartem me’od lenafshosaichem””.

    Anyone have a pshat?

    October 21, 2014 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1178125
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14587&st=&pgnum=158&hilite=

    October 21, 2014 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1178126
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I don’t think that really answers my question. He grants that it is not the pshutan shel eilu hakesuvim but says that chazal were someich on them to assur all things which lead to sakana. I don’t have such a problem if Chazal darshen something out of a pasuk. My problem is that as far as I know, Chazal never actually used this pasuk for this. It is only much later that this pasuk is used. And it’s not like Chazal didn’t talk about danger using other pesukim (e.g. Bava Kamma 15b) that there was such a need to hijack this one.

    October 24, 2014 2:15 am at 2:15 am #1178127
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Also, the Perisha in his hakdama writes that the Levush when explaining the reasoning behind halachos, did not get them from the Gemara. Instead he used the Beit Yosef and when the Beit Yosef didn’t give the reason, the Levush made up the reason. In this case,the Beit Yosef does not discuss the source that Chazal used to assur dangerous things, so perhaps the Levush was just saying this on his own.

    November 13, 2014 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1178128
    Sam2
    Participant

    PAA: R’ Schachter discusses this at the 16-minute mark or so.

    Mods, please allow this YUTorah Shiur from R’ Schachter through:

    http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/820244/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Shiur_-33_-_Kesubos_-_Lo_hispika_laamod_b-din_ad_she-bagra#

    November 13, 2014 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1178129
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Sam2:

    Thanks for the link. R’ Shachter quotes the Maharsha which I quoted. But then he says that the Rambam quotes the pasuk of “Venishmartem me’od lenafshosaichem” in Mishneh Torah. But I have not seen such a Rambam. In Hilchos Chovel Umazik 5:1 the Rambam writes:

    ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????

    and in Hilchos Shevuos 5:17 he writes ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????

    and in Hilchos Rotzeach 2:2 he writes:

    ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ???

    ??? ????? ?? ????

    ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???

    and in Hilchos Deios 4:1 he writes:

    ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????????

    In none of these places does he mention “Venishmartem…”

    Do you happen to know what R’ Schachter was referring to? Because I have been unable to find his source.

    November 13, 2014 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1178130
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    One mention is enough. The Gemara in Brachos is not ‘the closest.’ It is it, albeit it was said by a non-Jew. If you would see other Pesukim used then you can have a Kasha why did this one outlast them. But the fact that the Rambam didn’t find it necessary to mention the Pasuk is not a Kasha.

    And, Chazal use Pesukim this way often. It is not even a Drasha. It is paying attention the particular phrase. If the Torah is telling you to watch yourself dearly lest you do something wrong, we do see from the phrasing that watching yourself is important.

    November 13, 2014 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1178131
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Haleivi:

    A non-Jew does not qualify as Chazal using it. All the more so when the Maharsha points out that that is not what the pasuk was referring to. And my kashya wasn’t that the Rambam didn’t mention it. My kashya was that R’ Schachter said that the Rambam does mention it and I don’t know of anywhere where the Rambam mentions it. To that end I quoted four places where the Rambam discusses the idea of not hurting yourself and he doesn’t mention this pasuk.

    September 9, 2016 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1178132
    Health
    Participant

    ???? ????????? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ?????

    ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??

    ?? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????

    ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ????

    Danger!”

    This would include walking or being near country roads!

    Do you agree or not?

    September 9, 2016 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1178133
    2scents
    Participant

    That’s subjective.

    September 9, 2016 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1178134
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My agreement or lack thereof is subjective? 😉

    I do not agree that someone who lives on a country road or stands near one violates v’nishmartem.

    September 9, 2016 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1178135
    golfer
    Participant

    Strongly disagree, Health.

    I walked on a country road in the recent past.

    It was necessary to do so in order to reach the home I was staying at.

    Are you suggesting, Health, that I was oiver a lahv by walking home? Or by staying in a home located on a country road? Are you suggesting that I was supposed to approach this home only in a vehicle and not on foot?

    Would you consider driving a vehicle on a dark, twisting, sloping road safer than traversing it by foot? Are you suggesting that it is only muttar to stay on urban roads? Statistically are there less traffic accidents causing bodily injury on city roads than on country roads?

    I’m finding the discussion regarding the source of our obligation to take care of our bodies very interesting.

    I’m finding Health’s comment disturbing in light of recent tragic events. In addition to being uncalled for, his conclusion is incorrect.

    September 9, 2016 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1178136
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I strongly agree, golfer.

    “We all know that there are some people in this world that cope with any given tragedy by grasping for straws to try and blame the victims.”

    Coffee addict post in the news article about Monsey crash

    (FTR, I’m not referring to CA, nor did I take NCB’s comment that way.)

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