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I’ve always wanted to but never bothered planning because as far as i know its assur to walk into a church and everything worth seeing is a church or chapel or whatever…anyone have any experience with this?
I would wager that cshapiro has some experience in this matter
There are a lot of things to see in Rome. For one thing, there is a Jewish community there and definitely old Shul buildings and old Jewish neighborhoods. There are many things to see in Rome besides Churches.
I was just there and Italy was totally awesome
Here is what to see
Colosseum
Arch of Titus (Roman Forum) You can see a relief of the Menorah from the Bais Hamigdosh
Jewish Ghetto – Oldest Diasporah Jewish Community and great real Italian Food (Its all restaurants now)
Trevi Fountain
Spanish Steps
Vatican Museum (Its NOT a church)
I took a guided tour of the Collesseum and the guide told us
The Colloseum was build with the stolen stuff from the Bais Hamigdosh
Vespesian wanted to united the Roman People as he had just become emporer and used the Colleseum to get people on his side
I was in Italy for 8 days
I went to Rome, Florence and Venice.
Venice is truly Spectuacular
There is a Kosher Restaurant in Venice called Gam Gam where they have tables right on the Canal.
To see Florence you have to appreciate Art. I truly loved seeing Michaelangelo pieces, but I am not sure if others would appreciate it.
Everyone can appreciate Venice
The Colosseum was built mostly with funds and Jewish slaves captured in the First Jewish War. I think that it is appropriate to rais kria upon seeing it and the Arch of Titus.
Spanish steps- Is just that; a wide set of stairs where people hang out. After 5 minutes you’ve seen enough.
The same goes for Fontana di Trevi. Just a place where people hang out.
Collosseum was interesting. You must also visit the old shul by the Jewish Quarter.
I did not go to the Vatican, as I was told you need to walk through the Sistine Chapel as part of the tour, and Rabbonim say you should definitely avoid it.
One thing you cant avoid, unfortunately, is all the nude statues… although if you go to Florence you need to see Michaelangelo’s sculpture of David!
Watch out for pickpockets, they are all over.
If you visit the Vatican Museum you dont need to go to the Sistine Chapel, Right before you hit it you can turn around and go back. You are not forced to go in the Sistine Chapel.
There was supposedly a large jewish exhibit in the vatican museum, but I did not see it.
I had a Money Belt so there was no way I was going to get Pick Pocketed. You would have to tackle me to get it. I rode the subway there no problem. There were a few scammers in the train station so keep your eye out for your luggage (I took the train from Rome to Venice. Its 400 Miles and it took less than 4 hours)
Frankly just walking through Rome is Fascinating, there are many old things to look at, There is a lot of Archeological digs going on.
Italy is very proud of its jewish heritage unlike other European countries and they encourage you to visit the jewish sites (The Arch of Titus is considered by the Authorities to be a Jewish Site)
I met a woman in the Ghetto who ran a small Souviener shop.
Unfortunatly she only spoke Italian and did not understand english, Hebrew or Spanish (I can speak some Spanish)
But from I did gather when the Nazis came and deported the jews somehow she was hidden , somehow I think she was hidden.
I do think she saw many brutal acts as a child.
She was not too keen about talking about it and the language barrier was great, but she did have a story to tell.
Plenty of non-church stuff to see, zahava’s dad covered them. We took a picture in front of the Arch of Titus- I was pregnant at the time, and I love this picture, because it goes to show that Titus and his precious Roman empire are long gone, but we Jews are still here and going strong by having Jewish children 🙂
My wife and I visited Rome a couple of years ago, we had a blast.
There’s so much OTHER stuff to do there besides churches.
As for the sistine chapel, it’s not pashut that it is completely forbidden to enter – ask your LOR about it.
Thanks.
If Titus’ arch is considered a Jewish site, why don’t we get permission to fix up the picture of the Menora to make it match with the picture in the Rambam?
HaLeivi: And be mevazeh the shitas HaRamban?
If I were to go to Italy, the first place I’d go to is Maranello…where Ferraris are made. Then, I’d go to Sant Agata Bolognese…where Lamborghinis are made. Then, if I still had enough time, I’d go to Modena…where Maseratis are made.
85% of Italian Jews survival the holocaust. Milan. has yeshivas,Florence has the most beautiful shul in Europe, Venice has one of the oldest active shuls. Nusach Italia is one of the oldest and community is 2000 years old.
Years
The Me’am Lo’ez was born to a Crete Family
At the Time there was no Italy and it was a bunch of City States and Crete was part of Venice.
Italy did not become a country until 1870.
IMO there is not likely any other country with such a jewish history as Italy. While other places have had stronger jewish presence and stronger jewish personalities, few other places have had such a long and continous presence as Rome and Italy.
While the Romans did destroy the Bais Hamigdosh and Hadrian removed all jewish character from Jerusalem making it a roman city Aeola Capitala, In Rome itself jews were relatively free and many had the same rights as an ordinary Roman citizen.
While jews were kicked out of many countries (inclding Naples and Scicily) they were allowed to live in Rome and Venice
Florence’s shul is new by Italian standards. It’s only about 500 years old. Their community really is one of our oldest.
I’m surprised no one mentioned this: There is a long-standing tradition that there is a Cherem on anyone who walks under the Arch of Titus. You can go and look at it; but not walk under it.
Itche: Why would that be a Bizui? It would be like saying we don’t Pasken like that Rambam. When we make the Menorah B”B we will have to not Pasken like someone. The Arch seems to be a pretty good proof that the Rambam will be the opinion we don’t Pasken like in this case.
Sam: Why is the Roman-made Arch a proof?
Sam2, I don’t actually have anything invested in either picture. However, I don’t consider Titus’ arch as any proof, at all. It was erected after he died. The artist probably never saw the Menora. Does it have a depiction of the full count of Gevi’im Kaftorim and Perachim?
Some say that Titus got a fake Menora. But, it was probably a look-alike, anyhow.
It had the right count, I think.
Sam2-
You can’t walk under the arch of titus – it’s blocked off and barred.
You can walk under the Arch of Titus, I did
The Arch of Arch of Septimius Severus I was not able to get that close
You cant walk under the Arch of Constantine either , Its fenced around.
The arch of titus is in the Roman Forum , The whole area is a ruin anyway, Its an archelogical dig area. It sort of feels like almost being in an area that was bombed.
There are Fascades to Roman Temples there like the Temple of Saturn, but its only the Fascade its like a homage to a lost civilization.
They must’ve changed the arch of titus then. It was barred when I was there 2 yrs ago
zahavasdad, Gam Gam is the ONY kosher restaurant in Venice. And Rami and his family are amazing. It is quite an experience. Venice in itself is amazing and quite an experience as is Rome.
bombmaniac, you deserve a trip of a lifetime. There is a lot of Jewish history in Rome and in Venice and if you can make a trip and see both cities that would be amazing. There is no problems with food. If you contact Rami before you go, he will make sure to wait for you when you get there so you will have something to eat in case you come in late. You can call him when your plane lands and make arrangements. And there are so many Restaurants to choose from in the Ghetto all in walking distance so that is not an issue either. It pays to invest in a Jewish guide because there is so much to learn. And the cities are very old and historic. You do NOT have to go to any churches at all. WE didn’t and we chose NOT to go to Vatican city at all. We loved the artists in the Pallazzo and we did invest in some paintings there. They were lovely.
The SHUL in Rome was amazing. There is another smaller shul across the bridge in the old hospital with beautiful stained glass windows.
Bomb, treat yourself to an amazing experience. It is not Holy like going to E”Y, but you would be surprised the connections in history.
MiddlePath- do you like cars by any chance? 😉
JMO, Any city that has had the zchus of Daily or weekly Minyanim for over 2000 years consequtively has some kedusha.
Other than Tunis, I cant think of any other city that has had so many consequtive minyanim
(I dont know if there was Minyanim every week during WW II)
I do know that the Emperor Hadrian banned jews from Jerusalem and renamed the city Aeola Capitola so Jerusalem does not fit the bill
I dont think there are any jews in Falluja (Pumpeditha) anymore
methinks, yea, you can say that!
Did you not know that about him. Cars and music really get him going….
MP, you are so MALE!!!
ZD, maybe you can help him plan the trip. Bomb I can give you an excellent travel agent, and I can even find the guide we used in Rome last year. There is only one Yeshiva both boys and girls but they house 1,300 kids. That blew my mind.
I doubt I could plan anyones here trip
What interests me might not interest others.
Truth be told my favorite thing in Italy was seeing Michangelo artwork especially David. I am not sure others here would want to see Michaelangelo’s David. It was the most amazing statue I ever saw.
Well then I would suggest that Bomb tell us what he decided to do, and then we can all give him info and suggestions.
adorable, yes, they do, and sometimes I can’t stop!
aries, not sure if that’s a compliment, but thanks! 🙂
I actually forgot to mention that while in Modena, I would also visit the Pagani factory, which is the company that makes my favorite car.
adorable- well the music I knew from his musical thread and the car thing, I should’ve known..most guys are into cars!!
methinks, yea, most guys are, but I’m on a whole different level. Like, if I had the time and the money, I’d be building my own car in my garage.
sounds like a plan for when ur retired, bored and rich lol
what kind of car would you build?
MiddlePath, that is VERY male!
“I actually forgot to mention that while in Modena, I would also visit the Pagani factory, which is the company that makes my favorite car.”
which car is that?
methinks, my favorite car is the Pagani Zonda R. Entirely made of carbon fiber, has a AMG GTR v12 engine, and is actually not road legal because it has no turning indicators, slick tires, and is too loud.
And if I had the time and money, I’d build a 1965 Shelby Cobra replica. Amazing machine.
Queen Bee, I suppose. 🙂
i will only own the Bugatti Veyron Super Sports
as you know it is endowed with a 8.0L W16-Cylinder, four turbochargers, and a dual-clutch DSG computer-controlled manual transmission. the Veyron can reach a top speed of 253 mph.
it reaches 60 mph in 2.5 seconds
A good choice, 80. I personally don’t like the Veyron. If I were going for top speed, I’d get the Koenigsegg Agera R, which, I believe, reaches 275 mph. And if I were going for 0-60 mph, I’d get the Ariel Atom V8, which can do it in 2.5 seconds as well.
But I think the Veyron SS is more expensive than the Agera R, so start saving up now!
middle- I am rolling!!! OMG
MP- interesting! I like the look its cool.
80- your only gonna own that car??
Nice, bomb!
happiest, me too! 🙂 It is pretty funny, like we’re having serious conversations here about owning cars that cost more than 1 million dollars..
Thanks, methinks!
Sam2: Once again my sarcasm fails to come across online. Gotta stop doing that. 🙂
For the record, I think that we will end up paskening like Ramban not Rambam for a variety of reasons.
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