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Is Vien a Chasidus or is it Oberlander?
It was oberlander first turned into chassidish later on.
It’s a “we’re really frum and we don’t want to wear short jackets and we like shtreimels and we speak Yiddish and so we’ll just unintentionally / unconsciously turn into chassidim” thing.
There are plenty of similar groups. Dushinsky became a ‘chassidus’, same for most of the other Yerushalmi groups. They don’t have any mesorah from the Besht.
Sam4: How did it change?
Almost everybody in Williamsburg became more chassidish – There are barely any ‘real oberlenders’ left- all their kids wear shtreimel.
“There are barely any ‘real oberlenders’ left- all their kids wear shtreimel.”
Oh, do you have it down pat. Walk into Vien on 50th st (either bldg) and you can count on one hand the number of down-brim hats, and neckties.
I thought Vienner generally don’t wear shtreimels. Usually an “up-hat” (as opposed to a down-hat). And the Vienner Rov is called just that, and is not referred to as a “Rebbe”.
I was always wondering why the vieners are all wearing shtreimlach today. You think they’d be wearing them if shtreimlach looked today the way they looked 30 years ago?
And besides chasidim are very makpid on mesoirah and minhagim. They should be thinking ” Why am i not following my father’s mesoirah and davening ashkenaz,mustache only, oberlander havarah, etc.” ( And Vien in Williamsburg changed to sefard. What’s up with that?? )
Oberlander havara is the same as Chasidish havara.
What Nusach does Vien daven, and has it ever changed?
And how are shtreimlech today different than they were 30 years ago?
doswin: you must be relatively young. Oberlander havara is NOT the same as standard chasidisha havara. Vien should be nusach ashkenaz, and shtreimlach 30 years ago were flattter an uglier.
Oberlander havara is very similar to Chasidish. Certainly much closer to that than to Litvish havara. The only difference between Chasidish and Oberlander havara that comes to mind is tzaayraai (C) instead of tzeirei (O).
Vien is of Oberlander background. The Oberlander community though, has changed over the years. Unterlanders (Chasidishe Hungarians, Unterland being the opposite of Oberland) came in to the kehillah. Chasidishe Rabbonim were hired, who at times tried to make things more Chasidish. Some of the Oberlander (perhaps as a reaction to the above) joined other Ashkenazishe groups such as Yeshivish, Chasidish, and Modern Orthodox.
A few years ago the Williamsburg branch changed to nusach Sfard. But that wasn’t because all the old Oberlanders converted, rather that there were hardly any left in that neighborhood, and the Viener Rav/Rebbe had brought Chasidishe in. The main Vien in BP still davens Ashkenaz.
To say that all the Oberlander kids wear shtreimels is not true. You can find Ashkenaz Oberlander kids in places like Lakewood and elsewhere.
@Doswin: the same havarah is also used by some chassidim, specifically in Dushinsky it is used also. “avoiseini” instead of “avoisaini”, as an example.
Many Hungarians say it like that. The “ai” is a Polish thing though nowadays it seems more common, since in general it seems many people move towards either 1 Litvishe havarah or 1 chassidishe with seemingly no variations and nothing in between. I don’t think it was historically like that.
Satmar and Minkatch, which are Hungarian not Polish, says avoisaini not avoiseini (and always has said it as such, afaik.)
Gatesheader – the Boyaner Rebbe also says it that way.
Vien is not a Chassidus.
Vien is Chassidish, but it ain’t a “Chassidus”
A Chassidus has Chassidim, in fact it usually has many Chassidim.
However, Vien under the current Rav/Rebbe is bankrupt.
It lost all its Yeshivas/Mesivtas, its Great Shul in Williamsburg is empty, etc, etc,
So, yes Vien is Chassidish, but don’t confuse it with a Chassidus
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