Video of woman being attacked at peleg protest

How long before a counter demonstration is started and then further violence ensues?

If inducted to civil service, they’ll be a fifth column from within the system.

If you would like to condemn the protests based on what an individual at them did then let us look at it the other way. Some of the people who oppose these protests are anti-religious. How can you support opposing protests then?

Joseph,

But the rest of the protesters are probably justified after she did what happened before the clip started.

Yeah… no. We are responsible for our own behavior no matter what someone else does.

The Peleg HaYerushalmi is a terrorist organization that has called for the death of the head of the IDF branch for yeshiva students. It should be outlawed and its leaders imprisoned for incitement. Their words definitely fall under the “clear and present danger” test.

“How can you support opposing protests then?”

I’m assuming this is directed at me so let me state I am not in favor in any counter demonstration, However actions have consequences and fomenting anger and hatred will unfortunately often have the affect of increasing division and hatred and yes violence.

ZD: There is an issue of the draft in Israel and that Yeshiva Bocherim do not get drafted. However the deal that they dont get drafted includes the provision that they go down to the Draft board and tell them.

The Peleg Yerushalim faction not only does not go to the draft, they do not even go down to the draft board to register

Is the provision that they must go to “tell them”, or that they must register to conscription at a later point in time?

golfer,

Thanks for being the one to say that.

I, for one, do not think that adocs’ “shaila” was serious. It was a rhetorical jab and guilt by association.

Right now, no one is forcing yeshiva boys to leave yeshiva and go the army. All they have to do is register at the draft office and they get a deferment for as long as they are full time yeshiva students. By the time they are not, they are usually much older, married with several kids and no longer needed by the army, so they do not end up serving.
Etznikim (aka Peleg Yerushalmim) refuse to register, and then rant about the terrible gezeira of forced conscription. If any one them run afoul of the police, they get arrested for draft dodging. Then they protest the arrest. And more get arrested…endless pointless cycle.

If they keep it up, they will get enough of the chilonim enraged, the draft/anti-chareidism will once more become a major issue in the next election, and Yair Lapid will win a majority over likud…and then there really will be a draft issue for everyone!

What is most painful to me, is that these hoodlums, are acting supposedly in the name of HaRav Shmuel Auerbach Shlita. I doubt he is aware of what is really going on, but that aside, Rav Shmuel’s father, Rav Shloime Zalman ztzvk”l, was the epitome of ‘dracheha darchei noam’. He never got involved in politics at all, and was known for being a peace maker. How are these actions being done in the name of his son?!

There are two entirely separate issues here.

The behaviour of those protesters in the video, and the wider political issue.

There is a correlation between the two issues, but not necessarily causation. Wild, violent behaviour by some angry protesters is not an indictment of the entire movement, any more than agreeing with the views of the protesters validating bad behaviour.

The protesters acting violent in the video were wrong in acting in the manner they did, even if provoked. A Yid is expected and required to mantain a certain standard no matter what the situation, and some of these people failed miserably in that regard. Obviously the fact that this video is taken in isolation makes it much harder to see what’s going on, but that doesn’t excuse these actions. Condoning the protest does not equal condoning what took place in those few sayings. And obviously both in terms of touching a woman and hitting anyone, this is ossur.

Having said that, the only truly violent behaviour in this video is by a very young child. It’s impossible to say if this child was badly bought up, in a difficult situation or even just ADHD. To judge all of them on the actions of a few, especially the actions of a child, is plainly ridiculous.

I’m not going to go into the wider politics, firstly because of how incredibly long that would take and because there is little in this world more mind-numbingly irritating and convoluted than the ins and outs of Israeli politics. I’ll leave that unpleasant task to the rest of you.

In conclusion: Yes, those who were violent in the video were wrong and almost certainly oiver several issurim, but the most significant actions were by a child, and we have no way of knowing what led to that.

“Rav Shlomo Zalman personally attended protest against the draft.”

He didnt kick anyone, turn over a dumpster,light garbage on fire, throw rocks or call policemen nazis.

I have a different take on these protesters and how they justify their behavior.

They aren’t different from anyone else (like bloggers for example) who believe they are out to save the world and the ends justify the means. They have a yetzer hora to act physically. Bloggers have a yetzer hora to hide behind a computer screen where they are safe. in ESSENCE they both have the same mentality. It is very easy for one group to bash the other.

I’m not justifying anything.But I do understand the yetzer hora that causes people to justify this behavior to themselves.

I don’t think this group would exist if not for Yair Lapid’s effort to draft Lomdey Torah.(They didn’t exist before in this demographic)) And I don’t think they are inherently evil people acting with the malevolence the blog world attributes to them.They are reacting to the threat of imprisonment the government has placed on them.Albeit in the wrong way.

Penina L’Shem Shmoyim Kivanah.

These people don’t listen to Rav Elyashiv…or anyone else.

Streetgeek: Can I try answer you without getting stuck in the technicalities of the Zionism Debate? Let’s talk on a general level.

The attitude of “live and let live” is not a Frum attitude. You are correct that you must respect somebody who disagrees with you on the “Chicken V. Shnitzel” debate, or on the “Rosenblatt v. Koussevitzky” issue. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and to hate somebody because a preference of his is assur.

“Beliefs”, however, are not a matter of choice. The Torah tells us how to think and act, and our job is to clarify the Torah’s position and act accordingly. And if there are those who act AGAINST the Torah, especially those who are deliberately Anti-Torah, they are evil.

We say every Friday night: “אהבי ה’ שנאו רע. Those who love Hashem despise Wickedness.” This isn’t “שנאת חנם”, this is Sinah with a very positive reason. R’ Meir and Bruria famously disagreed whether to hate the Sin or the Sinners (יתמו חטאים\חוטאים מן הארץ), but both are in agreement that our world is not an egalitarian society where beliefs are a matter of choice. “Acceptance” is the one thing we do not have; we shun and reject falsehood and atheism and anti-Torah beliefs with all of our might.

Seeing people who are not observant should hurt. If somebody would publicly abuse your father, hit him and spit and degrade him, would you be able to just walk past, or would you feel emotionally involved and hurt? Every person who sins is minimizing Kovod Shamayim; is a terrible black stain in the world. It is sad when we sink to the depths that we allow others to sin; that we are so low that we maintain casual indifference to רע. We must do everything we can to promote Kiyum Torah UMizvos, and with that, Kovod Shamayim. And we must do everything we can to protect our sensitivities, that we don’t become numb to Aveiros and Kofrim.

The point of protesting is two fold:

A) “When you are hurt, you cry out”. Regardless of whether or not there is anything constructive to gain by protesting [which there generally is], protesting shows the voice of truth is still fighting. It means not bowing to the Haman by keeping a straight back. Imagine your parents, or you son, was locked up for keeping Shabbos. Would you do everything in your power to release him, and to ensure that others are able to continue keeping Shabbos?

B) It helps us. When you see a Jew doing an Aveirah with casual indifference, it is mashpiah on you. It makes sin more accessible, more real, and less terrible each time. It’s a natural phenomenon. Every time I see a Yid being Moicheh for Kovod Shabbos – shaking his fist at a car driving through the streets, or shouting “SHABBOS!” at the top of his lungs, it guards me from allowing the sight of a casual sinner from ruining my sensitivity to חטא. When hundreds of Yidden march up the roads with all their children, clad in their shabbos finery, singing “Yismechu Bemalchusecha” – it may mean nothing to the Mechallelei Shabbos, but it sure inspires courage, resistance in the Shoimrei Torah.

Yekke2, thank you for your post.
You said so much that needed to be said.

One of our biggest problems today is our exposure to secular ideals until they become so entrenched in our minds that we think they’re OUR ideals too. We are appalled at the immodest images we might expose ourselves to when we use the internet, but we often disregard, at our peril, the poison seeping into our brains from our overexposure to secular morals and mindsets.

It sounds so nice and kind to say that we accept all people regardless of their lifestyles and behaviors. In fact the Torah does not allow us to accept deviant and heretical beliefs, actions and words, and we have to vocally reject them for the reasons you stated. Kvod Shamayim must be our top priority. Wanting to be tolerant to others doesn’t give us permission to Ch’v disregard that.

The subject of “yitamu chata’im” vs “yitamu chotim” is more complicated as you also mentioned, but the principle of firmly rejecting all forms of evil stands.

Hitting out at a passing woman whose dress mode does not conform to your own

Nobody is hitting women whose dress mode doesn’t conform to their own. They are hitting women whose dress mode doesn’t conform to Hashems. And that is all the difference.

I am not advocating violence. Use of violence לאפרושי מאיסורא needs clear guidance from a Posek, especially when circumstances involve the media and national law. Whatever my opinions are on the subject, I would certainly not be so presumptuous and egotistical as to argue with a Gadol Hador who paskens either way in such a shaila. And if I was to develop an opinion, I would try be as careful as I could to ensure that my position should be in accordance to Torah values, not influenced by my emotions or morals that may have invaded my mind from external Western sources.

dont worry about giving the chareidy world a bad name. Only people who ignore the actions of tens of thousands and instead judge them by the actions of a little kid will thing bad about them and those people probably think all jews are thieves anyway because look at Bernei Madoff
no need to worry noone with a little brains thinks that way despite the instigation by anti religious news outlets – See more at: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/ywn-videos/1245936/watch-this-violent-peleg-yerushalmi-protesters-kick-and-beat-woman-call-her-names-until-rescued-by-cops.html#comments

“They are hitting women whose dress mode doesn’t conform to Hashems.”

Does their action conform to Hashems will?

apushatayid:

Does their action conform to Hashems will?

Use of violence לאפרושי מאיסורא needs clear guidance from a Posek.

For the sake of clarity, I was responding to yekke, who was responding to a poster wondering why parents aren’t teaching their children “ahavas chinam” and “acceptance”.
As is obvious from my earlier post and from yekke’s, neither of us is advocating violence.
People on all sides of the issue, when becoming overly excited and overly emotional, are prone to making poor choices, and may arrive at false conclusions.

thank you anonymous for answering my call so quickly and proving my point so eloquently!
Any other balah batim could help me out here as well!

(just a side note – you really beleive any any gedolim would be opposed to blocking traffic to protest if people were murdering frum people by the hundreds or do you just not believe the gemara that it is worse to cause one to sin then to murder him or does your das bala bayis argue with the this das torah that causing chareidy youth to go into the army is causing one to sin>? or do you not believe the army statistics that the rate of service by chareidim has gone up due to their aggressive campaign to get weaker chareidim to join? (not that it makes a difference just wondering what goes on in the mind of an antichareidy whose obviously not the brightest knife in the drawer)the answer is ofcourse all gedolim agree in such situations you can block traffic all of them at times when they felt that was the best way to prevent spiritual destruction in this situation some gedolei hador think this is a way to stem the destruction and some dont a bala bas’s opinion on the web just strengthens the opposite side