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Mod’s thank’s for the edit, you were probably right.
As for “outlet’s for ruchniyous.
Again “outlets” for ruchniyuous.
Lerning Torah is not an outlet for ruchniyous ch”v.
It’s what we are, it’s why we are here.
Ki Heim Chayeinu is literal in every sense of the word.
And so if someone does chesed ect… through their job well yes the chesed is valuable.
Whether they are a man or a woman.
Make’s no difference.
Is the chesed of their job more important if they are a man or a woman?
I have no idea, but I would think it depends on that individual’s circumstances. It depends on what that individual person should be doing. Which has nothing to do with if they are a man or awoman.
As for woman per se.
Like I stated earlier.
Rashi explains the Gemorah of Nushim B’Mai Zachyan as stating since the woman are the one’s who send their sons husbands to learn and son’s to yeshivah while keeping the home they are zoche to a greater portion in Olam haboh then Men.
So what does that say Rashi held was more “important”?
And if you want to go down to the modern era Rav kaplan who stood by his wife’s side in starting Bais Yackov in America was actually a Maggid Shiur in Yeshiva, he could’nt do both and asked Rav Aaron what to do. Rav Aaron told him to devote his time to Beis Yackov, and Rav Aaron also said the Kaplan’s were the biggest “Roshei Yeshivah” in America they were most responsible for building Torah in America because it all depend’s on the woman.
BYM
First off B”H yes I am married with children K”h.
Secondly we seem to be speaking in two different directions.
All agree that if a leg contains a growth ch”v that is inoperable and the only way to ensure that a life is saved is to remove the leg, then it is best to remove it.
I am quite sure that after the operation the person who’s life is saved on account of the removal of his leg is quite happy and is better off then if the leg was not removed.
However at the same time it is a tragedy that the person lost his leg. And tht person is I am sure sad that he no longer has his natural leg.
Marriage is the same thing.
We are not Goyim.
We do not marry because “personally” it’s more enjoyab;le. Nor do we have children because “personally” it’s more enjoyable.
We marry and we build a home because that is a fundemental part of our job in this world.
That is a main part of Parshas Bereshis and is a statment that is emphasized by Chazal “Man was created to reproduce” Tractate Chagiggah Daf Beis Amud Beis)”.
If the Marriage that was supposed to build a Bayis Ne’eman B’Yisroel fails for whatever reason.
Then yes it is a tragedy of untold proportions.
It is a tragedy so great that Chazal tell us the Mizbeach sheds tears.
At times yes, it is a needed tragedy, at times there is a situation in which the Torah commands us to disolve the marriage.
Where a person’s life is in danger the Torah commands us to remove the leg.
Yet it is tragic.
And perhaps if we would keep this in mind more and the influences of the outside culture less then there would be more Sholom Bayis and less divorce.
I think you’re being very bullheaded here.
The distinction made earlier is quite valid. Just because a marriage is about more than the two individuals doesn’t mean that in every case it was supposed to build a Bayis Ne’eman and tragically didn’t. If a spouse is abusive, and not ready to enter any marriage, and it is not feasible for the marriage to work, then it was perhaps a gezeirah on the spouse to have to go through that, but you cannot say that a Bayis is tragically being broken. Your general point may be valid while acknowledging these exceptions.
I don’t think the two of you are disagreeing but rather are emphasizing different points. Rabbi Miller often said that 99% of divorces were avoidable and unnecessary. So, yes, of course there are those 1% exceptions. But as a general rule it is by far tragic.
hashtorani – I stuck in my two cents there only because BL made it quite clear that he is talking in all cases, even the ones BYM referred to. And blamed it on his Grand Torah Hashkafa.
Logician
If someone got married then yes the hope was that a Bayis Ne’eman would be built.
Of course there are times, exceptions not even close to the amount that are bandied about now-a-days that one spouse failed in thier duties due to an inability to conquer or change thier middos in what ever respect and therfore a divorce was needed.
However that in no way diminishes the fact that it is tragic that the home was broken.
“Have no fear. I am not stuck in a place I don’t like. But since I grew up with these hashkafos (more from my education than from my family), I still like to sort them out and hear what other people have to say. Also, it serves as a way for me to verify if people really DO think a certain way or if it is my biased perception. Sadly, I find that most of the time, yes, certain people think a certain way.”
I had thought you were trying to judge others, so I was trying to explain their POV. I realize now what your point is and I am sorry for misunderstanding you.
“”Rabbi Miller often said that 99% of divorces were avoidable and unnecessary.” I think this is an exaggeration.”
—like I said, he said many outrageous things.
Bais Yaakov Maidle: I think you may have a different value of “accomplishment” than the Torah does. It is not really your fault as most BY and yeshivas brained washed a generation to believe that a person’s accomplishment is how much torah they will learn. This is not a Torah value. a person’s accomplishments comes from how positively he has affected his community. a person who sits and learns but never teaches torah or good middos to anyone else is valueless. a cab driver is more valuable to society than a person that just sits and learns and does not use any of that towards the betterment of society.
in the torah society you can accomplish a lot of good in many different ways. ?????????? ???????????, ?????????? ?????????????, ????, ????? ??????????. ???????? ?????????–????????, ?????? ???????? ?????????: ??????? ???????, ??? ?????? ????????
once you realize that accomplishments can come in many different forms you will see that the guy who knows of all of shas may also not be accomplished and the woman who is sincere in her faith and raises the next generation of god fearing jews is far more accomplished.
“like I said, he said many outrageous things.”
Except that he is the gadol hador, not you or I, and neither of us are in a position to make such a pompous comment on a gadol.
besalel
The only problem with what you said is that the it’s wrong. Torah has intrinsic value someone who sit’s and learns all day is actually very accomplishes.
please see the Rambam in Hilchos Talmud Torah for a pretty clear delineation.
The only problem with what you said is that the it’s wrong. Torah has intrinsic value someone who sit’s and learns all day is actually very accomplishes.
But not for women. Why not?
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there are also many mamrey chazal which derides the ones who only learns and does nothing with it. i will try to look them up and quote them here.
Besalel.
have you any idea what you are talkiing about?
The Mishna you just qouted states Medrash not Talmud.
as for the Chazal you speak about why don’t you just look up the sugya in Kiddushin with the Rambam and Poskim.
You’ll learn something.
Starting with the fact that the Mishna we state every morning say’s “Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam”.
It’s a Mishna.
1.) ?? ???? ????? ????: ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? (????? ??, ?, ??”?
2.) ?? ‘?????? ?????’ ???? ???? ‘????? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ????’ (????’ ??? ?, ?)
3.) ???? ????????: ????? ???????? ???????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? (????? ??? ??? ?)
4.) “????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??????” (????? ??, ?
So it clearly can’t be literal in all the cases. It’s an expression. I don’t understand why when it says it by Talmud Torah everyone has decided that it literally means it.
Besalel is absolutely wrong.
?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???”? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?????’ ?? ????
:????? ?”?
Wow, someone is way behind on the daf.
DY: Besalel is not wrong in that there are Ma’amarei Chazal that are against only learning without performance of Mitzvos (and Ben Levi apparently doesn’t know what the word “Medrash” means). He is wrong in his application of those. As far as I know, every such statement refers to someone who only learns and therefore doesn’t even do Mitzvos.
646 is correct that there are several Mitzvos that are weighed K’negged Kol Hamitzvos. He is wrong in assuming it’s just a turn of phrase. We take all of them literally.
3) Ben Levi – We’ll just have to disagree. When Hashem lets you get fooled into marrying someone who is not fit for marriage, that was the (Heavenly-ordained) tragedy. Getting out is the hatzala.
Sam2,
How do you figure? Multiple Mitzvos can’t be the absolute greatest mitzvah, and thats what “keneged kulam” would mean if taken literally.
DY: And the Gemorah in Nedarim 000646 quoted uses the same pasuk for Bris Milah, not Limud HaTorah.
Sam, he is wrong about the cab driver. As in, Sanhedrin 99 wrong. (Popa, how far behind does that make me?)
unfortunately, my employment has kept me from responding meaningfully. someone who sits and learns in order to “pad his stats” for olam habba is derided by chazal. Kiddushin 40b, Megillah 27a; Kiddushin 40b; Bava Kama 17a, Berachot 17a, Yevamot 109b. there are others.
a guy who says im going to learn and does not use it to teach is compared to a desert rose (which no one can enjoy). rav yochanan says that somewhere. i dont remember the mekor for that one.
if you believe that a pushete yid cannot be as accomplished as any other jew youve missed the whole point of our torah. bais yaakov maidel who puts down cleaning ladies would do herself a favor reevaluating how she judges people’s worth and those who have taught her need to rid themselves of their william zanzinger mentality.
It seems to me that a woman’s ultimate accomplishment/purpose is the same as a man’s ultimate accomplishment/purpose. The nature of that ultimate accomplishment/purpose is a machlokes between (and I am sure there are other shittos out there) the Ramchal (to come close and derive pleasure from Hashem) and Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch (to aid the Klal). The difference between the men and women, in general, is in the path to that accomplishment. However that is only in general terms describing the bulk of kahal, not an individual prescription.
Back in the days of yore when there were neveim one could go to the navi to find out one’s path to the ultimate accomplishment, but nowadays, because of our many sins, we do not have neveim and therefore it is much more difficult to find one’s path.
and i also agree with logician. yes, torah learning when used for the better good is intrinsically valuable and women can contribute towards that value by being enablers but a womans value (or a mans value) is not limited to this particular intrinsically good mitzvah and learning torah or being an enabler for someone to learn can also make you an “unaccomplished” jew depending on other factors. a person who is honest in his or her dealings, makes a kiddish hashem wherever he or she goes and is mechazek the rabbim can also be a very accomplished yid. in other words, bais yaakov maidel’s premise that she can only be an accomplished jew vicariously is only true in a world where the only way a jew can become accomplished is by learning torah. this is unfortunately what the bais yaakovs (of all places) teach.
Besalel, while your point that someone can accomplish outside of learning is true, your statement that “a person who sits and learns but never teaches torah or good middos to anyone else is valueless” is apikorsus and is obviously unsupported by the gemaras you referenced.
apikorsus. i see. is that the 14th principle of faith? oh wait. wearing furry hats is the 14th principle. this must be the 15th. or is the 15th the one about the iphones? i get confused.
Sam is correct that Chazal emphasize that one should perform mitzvos, in fact the Vilna Gaon went out of his way to make sure he could perform every single mitzva applicable now-a-day’s.
However the difference lies in the fact that the Kedusha of Mitzvos are derived from the Torah while the Torah is intrinsically kadosh.
It’s a pretty hard concept to explain however anyone who want’s can learn the last 5 perakim or so of Shar Daled of Nefesh Hachaim.
Also see the Maharal in Tiferes Yisroel who explains the two names of Klal Yisroel the first is Yackov and is the level of Mitzvos the section and higher level is Yisroel which is the level of Torah.
bym: Being a housewife IS ideal and should be encouraged as that indeed is one of the ultimate accomplishments of Bnos Yisroel.
bym: You missed quoting benig’s second part: “The difference between the men and women, in general, is in the path to that accomplishment.”
Bais Yaakov Maidel: it seems like you are unhappy in your lot. i think the torah probably wants a jew to be happy more than anything else. if i had daughters i would want them to choose a path that they will be happy in and that is what i will want for my sons too. if they will want to learn then to use that path if they want to be an akeres habayis then that path if they want to be a cardiologist then that path and if they want to be a brick layer then that path.
BYM
Yes someone who learns and teaches Torah get’s more schar simply because they are spreading Torah, they are causing and helping more Torah to be learnt. It has nothing to do with affecting other’s positivley.
For a full in depth discussion of Torah it’s purpose and the definition of Torah L’shmoh please see Nefesh HaChachaim of Rav Chaim Volozhiner Zt”l Shar Daled.
As for the purpose of man and woman being the same.
Again man and woman are part of one unit and ultimatley part of the unit of Klal Yisroel so yes they have the same purpose.
However just as different people working in a company all have different tasks and all must be accomplished and done well for the company to thrive, man and woman have different tasks as part of the unit they are enjoined to form together.
And I really don’t see logically why this is a hard point to grasp.
Man and woman are physically different.
They are emotianally different.
They are different.
So why is it so hard to grasp G-d created them differently to suit different role’s?
besalel – I’m not quite sure what you said in that last post, but I don’t recognize anything in line with what I said. I vehemently disagree with your original post.
BYM, you’ve been making pretty big statements, and not backing them up at all. I’m going to have to assume that you’re going with your gut, or vague recollections of things you’ve heard/studied, as opposed to real knowledge.
“It seems to me…” – No one here disagreed that the underlying purpose is the same as the man’s. We’re discussing the means of doing so.
000646 – your question is valid. R’ Wolbe z”l has a very special sefer entitled “Mitzvos HaShekulos” where he deals exclusively with this.
Those who quote Nefesh HaChaim in support of their position that Torah learning has intrinsic value in the sense that you are thereby accomplishing and do not need to do for or teach others, are very much mistaken.
R’ Itzele explicitly says that his father admonished him for not doing enough for the Klal. As we all understand that he was learning, clearly R’ Chaim meant that he needs to do for others in a way BESIDES for learning. [B’sheim umro – not my proof, heard from a prominent Mashgiach.]
We find this idea clearly in many of the Gedolei Mussar. [Not to say that Torah learning doesn’t positively affect the world, as famous from R’ Elchonan’s pshat in the braisa of Eilu Dvarim – simply that that’s not enough.]
I suggest reading Reb. Tziporah Heller’s books and Aish.com to learn more about the role and duty of a Jewish women. Yiddishkeit has by far the most respect, acknowledges the intellect, wisdom (BINAH) and ultimately the fulltime honored position as devoted wife and mother. Whom our families love and cherish.
BYM
I am curious what reality what bubble you think I live in.
Is it a lack of exposure to the “non-religous” world view?
Let’s see I have a medical condition that requires pretty close monitoring which requires me to spend a considerable amount of time with some top doctor’s in a top hospital, I own a buisness, I also study torah with ir-religous people.
Perhaps it’s a lack of exposure to other culture’s? I have traveled in South America as well as Europe and lived in two different countries.
Perhaps I have’nt studied enough Torah to know what the Hashkofa of the Torah is on the Woman’s role in this world?
Well then if you would explain what the Torah’s view is and where you are basing it on then perhaps we can discuss it.
But I suspect that you don’t really have sources.
Isuspect that your reply will be something along the line’s of I feel….So I feel….and that’s why I feel…..
Which of course proves my point.
i think the torah probably wants a jew to be happy more than anything else.
Rather do some studying of what the Torah wants from you, than deciding what it ‘probably’ wants.
The above is a gross misunderstanding of the sources that discuss the importance of Simcha.
Well then, I’m sure a lot of people on this thread would prefer you stop teaching ! 😉
You have not been honest. You started with a valid question about a Torah-delegated vicarious role. This grew to a question why we don’t have identical roles, and now we have you stating that men and women are simply not different at all.
BYM, I’ll give you this: if you’ve been doing a lot of reading, listening etc, then yes, I’m sure you’ve heard a lot of drivel. This is the age when it takes next to nothing to establish yourself as an ‘authority’ on any given topic. And people def. tend to simply parrot the hashkafos they’re taught, without giving thought to today’s realities.
So you’re really seeking the truth. So just as example, I’ll ask you: why do you keep on harping on the intelligence issue ? Not one poster, far as I can recall, claimed that the Torah role for women is defined by their inferior intelligence. And I’m sure you haven’t come across that either. Yet you’re sure that’s really behind people’s attitudes.
So, as a very interesting case in point: How have you understood the Rambam’s very interesting terminology when explaining why women don’t/shouldn’t learn/be taught [have I covered all bases there?] Gemara ?
I haven’t read through this entire thread but it seems to me that there is confusion going on between the klal and the yachid.
Many, many, mamarei chazal apply to the rov, the majority of the population. It does not mean that there are no exceptions or even that exceptions are exceedingly rare. Furthermore, circumstances can change such that exceptions will become more common.
Now I think that in general women and men are quite different and suited for different roles in a frum society and in society in general. But that does not mean that individual men and individual women cannot be exceptions to that general principle and be suited for a role that is typically for the opposite gender. So although the average woman is not suited for learning Gemara (and I acknowledge the possibility that this has changed), an individual woman who has a cheshek to learn can and should learn Gemara and shteig. And although the average man is suited for learning gemara, an individual man might be ill-suited and, upon discoverying that fact, should spend his time learning and doing other things.
I have never been in a Bais Yakov, and I don’t really know how things are taught there. I suspect that different girls going through the system fixate on different things that are said and different messages that are being sent. Thus even if some level of nuance is inserted into the Bais Yakov message about motherhood being the foundation of klal yisroel (an undoubtably true statement), it might very well get lost in the transmission.
Bym,
I have seen some of the other threads you have started and if I may, let me give a bit of advice: trust your mind. You don’t need to have these arguments to see that what your mind is telling you is correct. There is no big deep secret out there that will give you the answer you are seeking. As they say “if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck it probably is a duck”
just wanted to say a nice line i read today that some of you might find interesting. it is from the gur aryeh* on the words “ezer k’negdo”–
“ki ha’isha shehi chashuva ush’kula k’mo ha’ish…ki ha’ish meivi v’ha’isha misakenes lo…”
hope i put in the right nekudos 🙂
basically we are equal but have different jobs. it’s really pretty simple
* a pretty chashuv source. this is the maharal who is saying this
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