- This topic has 151 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
The need to advertise “the exalted women” may be due to what the feministic ideology has done. As you mentioned a women might not be satisfied baking, cooking and caring for her family. Rather, she would feel more fulfilled, working, davening with a minyan 3 times a day, and learning.
Men, usually are satisfied with their roles so there is no need to speak about it.
A women always influences her husbands desire to learn and it is “B’zechus Nashim Tzdkanios Nigalu Avosenu…”
In life there are people who are superior to others whether for reasons of birth or reasons of accomplishment. An example of reason of accomplishment is a talmid chochom is greater than the hamon hoam. An example of reason of birth is a King is greater than his subjects and a Kohen is greater than a Yisroel. A Yisroel is required to give kovod to a Kohen and Kohanim get the first Aliya and other kibudim. There is nothing wrong with all this and everything right. It is the natural state of affairs and what the Torah commanded us. You don’t find (to the best of my knowledge) Yisroelim demanding egalitarianism in getting the same status as Kohanim. And similarly with gender issues we must accept and follow the comparitive status differences and differences in life demands that exist between men and women as defined by the Torah and nature itself.
Actually the parrellel’s to Kollel pretty much exist in the Torah.
The entire Shevet Yissoschar as well as Shevet Levi were set aside to be in “kollel”.
As per Chumash 2 out of 12 shevatim means 1/6.
Furthermore the Gemara in Megilla teaches us that in order to be considered a major city there had to be at least ten “batlanim” i.e a kollel of Ten.
So yes it was an anomaly that sadly for years Klal Yisroel lacked the requisite amount of people being dedicated to the Dvar Hashem.
B”h we know do have thousands of Yidden doing just that.
However sadly due to the millions of “not yet” observant jews as well the amount of Yidden dedicated to being “batlanim is still far below 1/6 of the nation.
BYM
You are right you won’t find any shiurim about “Man’s Tafkid in the home”, nor will you find shiurim about the interchangeble roles for men and women.
They are’nt there.
You see there are very basic differences in Judaic philosophy and secular feministic philosphy.
Feminism view the man and the woman as two distinct peaple who may join together in a partnership for one reason or another.
Now even if they “partner” up they remain iindividuals.
Judaisim is diametrically opposed to that.
In Parshas Bereshis we learn Chava was taken from the body of Adam and the Torah then enjoins us when we marry to be as “one body”.
We do not just form a partnership we “unite” we become one.
That is the goal.
The goal is for a man and woman to join together and build thier home, one home.
Now the Home that they are supposed to create is not one for themselves.
Rather we are trying to create a home that fulfills the mission G-d gave us.
In Pirkei Avos we are enjoined to view ourselves as “workers’.
So let’s look at the home as our “buisness”.
In a buisness there are different people with different roles to play.
How does a good employer find workers?
You try and find the ones who are most suited to the job, one’s that have a particular skill set.
Now what would happen if the graphic artist would walk in and attempt to take over the copy writer’s job and then the copy writer would take over the sale’s manager and the sale’s manager would take over the graphic artist’s job?
It would be disaster.
Now how about when they all play the role’s they are emeant to.
They all do their job’s properly.
Who is responsible for the finished product?
The all are.
And a succesful company is one that has the top in all categories that work in unison together,
A home is the same.
Hashem created man and woman differently.
They have different skill sets, any objective person will can see that.
If they don’t fight and compete with each other. Rather they both perform the roles they are meant to, then together they will build a great home.
I agree with many of the points you make, but still I’m confused. I’m not sure what your argument is. If you’re trying to say that you are greater for not wanting your husband to learn in kollel, there are people who agree with you already and those who disagree. No ones opinion is going to change. If you are asking if men have more worth, that is true to an extent but with about .00000000001% difference. If your frustration is that men don’t support their wives in following their dreams, that has nothing to do with Judaism bec Judaism has only the highest regard for eshet chayil and any good Jewish husband will view his wife as a heroine and if he doesn’t that’s a problem in their marriage and not a problem with Judaism.
From what you say, I feel like I am struggling with the same things as you so I am going to tell you what I tell myself. However if you feel the following doesn’t apply to you, feel free to ignore it.
You need to follow your dreams and you need to own your life. If you do what you thing is noble, people will respect it. If you spend your life feeling as if everyone is judging you and you feel that you need to justify it, only you will lose out. I know kollel families where both parents are Tzaddikim and I know kollel people who use I as an excuse to have month long vacations three times a year. The fact is that, even if people feel pressured to go into kollel, when they really know that they don’t want to, each person still has a choice and if a person chooses to lie to himself and live a life that ‘the neighbors’ respect, only that person is missing out. At the end of the day, there are many that want it for the right reasons and many who want it for the wrong reasons.
Yes. But that doesn’t change what I said. If there was real intrinsic worth to washing dishes and homemaking tasks, there would be no need to dress it up. And I’d be paying my cleaning lady more than ten dollars an hour.
On the other hand,
If teaching kids torah was important, I wouldn’t be paying my kids rebbe 10 dollars an hour.
If raising my children was important, I wouldn’t be paying my babysitter 7 dollars an hour off the books.
“You are right you won’t find any shiurim about “Man’s Tafkid in the home””
I disagree. I am constantly seeing another advertisement for a shalom bayis course. What are the speakers lecturing about if not the ‘man’s tafkid in the home’? Granted his tafkid is not the same as his wife’s but he does have his own responsibilities.
In a good marriage, a man will make his wife feel like she is saving the world by changing diapers and scrubbing the toilets. If a woman does not feel that she is making a real difference, either she should get out of the house more or her husband needs to do a better job of pumping her up or both.
As women, since we’ve been about 12, as long as our bodies have been healthy, we’ve been getting an announcement for a few days once a month of what our tafkid is. We don’t need a mitzva to tell us what our bodies already are telling us. Men are not given the same announcement so they need to have mitzvos to know what God expects of them.
Until I had kids, I thought being a STAH was the most lame ‘occupation’ in the world. Having a baby, however, changed my perception on everything. Being a mother is the most noble thing a woman can do. Yes, we all want respect and prestige, the more the better. But, when you finally have your own kid, the only person you know you need to be a hero for is your child.
There is no right or wrong, role of a women includes characteristics of what she was created to do, mother, wife, daughter, the feminist wanted equal playing field as you mentioned equal pay. The reality is a women’s first obligated to care for her family, (if her husband’s learning she chooses to support her family) but most women aren’t cut out for a grueling work day 9-7, and also give their family attention and care. It’s a man job to support- read the Kesuba. When he comes home, he also has needs to be taken care of-that’s where a wife comes in.
Think of the last family you know where “Mr.Mom” worked out?
That being said, the Rambam holds women get Schar for Limud HaTorah, so I imagine the statement of “means nothing” was only hyperbole, as she certainly gets schar.
His comment, as quoted, addressed the knowledge, not the act of learning, so it’s not a stirah.
Lishitasi, this IS the problem. You can’t have the woman bringing home the beef and still be telling her that her “role” is to support a husband in Kollel.
I don’t know what you mean “the problem”. Also, if she sees her role of breadwinner as one of allowing him to learn, it’s not a stirah to traditionally defined roles and relationship (there is a danger of this financial arrangement being perceived differently; it’s a risk/reward balance).
DY – The question as quoted from Rav Aharon says that all that counts is the husband’s learning. (“Even if a woman knows all of Shas, it means nothing. It is her husband’s learning that counts.”) Not her role in running the household, instilling Emunah and continuing the Shalsheles.
I disagree with your diyuk. I don’t think that statement, even as quoted, negates kiyum hamitzvos, his or hers, as not counting. It’s coming la’afukei from her learning (knowledge/accomplishment in learning).
Ben Levi: Shaychus? This is not a “Kollel vs. working” discussion, but rather an issue of who wears the “pants” in the home. If the wife works and the husband does not, she gets to wear the pants. You can’t say her role is to be Tzanuah and in the home and also her role is to be outside and working to support the family.
I think what you did not discuss (and should have) is that you believe men have an absolute advantage both in learning and in working, but a comparative advantage in learning. Therefore it is worthwhile for a woman to take a different (wrong for her) role to get the most out of the couple.
Logician: The shittah you described sounds to me exactly the shittah of Rabbi Mieselman in his new book (that certain halachos are true, but their reasons get re-interpeted by Meforshim (including Chazal) as people know more). I’m glad that I’m not the only one who is confused by the concept.
PBA: Importance != supply. Rabbaim would get paid more if fewer people would want to be a Rebbe. Babysitters would get paid more if there were fewer babysitters.
Right, as well as dishwashers.
The point being that price is not a good way to determine importance.
The point being that price is not a good way to determine importance.
Agreed.
interjection – love your posts. To have those feelings, and they clearly aren’t there by rote but from conscious decisions and an openness to life’s experiences – it says a lot.
GAW – I haven’t read it yet, just the intro. am planning to. But from what I know, I have a hard time believing that he says what I referred to. My problem was with the implication that the SOURCE of Chazal’s statement’s were social understandings, and the meforshim reinterpreted them according to modern ‘sensibilities’. To say that Chazal had a Torah source for an idea, and while their understanding was based on their perception, it is valid despite that being proven wrong, for reasons we may know better today – that’s something else. [I’m not saying I believe that, just differentiating between two similar sounding ideas.]
The idea may be similar to gezeiros, where we (often) say that they are still valid even when the reason given is no longer applicable, because they had hidden reasons as well.
price is not a good way to determine importance.
It’s certainly not the sole factor, but it just as certainly does play a role.
If I wanted to take my wife out to eat, but the babysitting would cost me $200, I wouldn’t do it.
OTOH, if I needed to pay that money to a babysitter to be able to attend my brother’s wedding, I would.
Logician – Got you. Thanks for clearing that up.
FYI, it is different than Gezairos, we we Pasken (in most cases) that they don’t apply if the reasoning is Batel. After all, when was the last time you saw people being Makpid on having Nessuin on a Wednesday or not burying due to Chavrai?
DY – I disagree with your diyuk. I don’t think that statement, even as quoted, negates kiyum hamitzvos, his or hers, as not counting. It’s coming la’afukei from her learning (knowledge/accomplishment in learning).
I agree that is probably not what Rav Ahron meant, but being that it could be and is read by both men and women for their own purposes, it could have been said better.
I don’t know what you mean “the problem”. Also, if she sees her role of breadwinner as one of allowing him to learn, it’s not a stirah to traditionally defined roles and relationship (there is a danger of this financial arrangement being perceived differently; it’s a risk/reward balance).
Chazal never saw a woman’s “role” to be a breadwinner who supports her husband in learning. The “negative social impact”, even if she allows him to learn by working, is that she is now “in charge” of the familiy (by virtue of funding) and that changes her role. It certainly is possible that you will have a working woman who still defers to her learning husband at all times (as you point out), but the shift in responsibilities and by extension power/role is still there.
His comment, as quoted, addressed the knowledge, not the act of learning, so it’s not a stirah.
I don’t think you will find anyone who would begin to say that knowledge of Shas, even by a lowly female, is completely worthless and “nothing”. If we Paskened like Rabbi Yehuda, would that make Rav Yosef’s Torah worthless? Was Tavi’s Torah worthless? Rabban Gamliel certainly didn’t think so.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt’l many times said that a working woman should hand her paycheck to her husband. Besides this being the halacha he said she should acknowledge that he’s in charge even if she is working. (I don’t know how that would work now with direct deposit. Maybe the bank account should be in his name with her as an authorized party.)
Umm… That’s not the Halachah. He gets a certain amount (Ma’aseh Yadeha) and she keeps everything after that (Ha’adafa).
Hashtorani, well that’s not the only view. Chassidic rosh yeshivah R’ Shalom Arush, recommends in Garden of Peace that wives be put in charge of the family’s finances.
Bais Yaakov Maidel, read a translation of the song Eishes Chayil. In it the Jewish wife is lauded for her business activities. It certainly wasn’t so she could support her husband’s full time Torah learning — as you mentioned, that is a newfangled arrangement.
Of course a woman’s working has intrinsic value. If a frum woman is a teacher and teaches children some Torah, or is a nurse and saves someone’s life, of course there is intrinsic value to that! No one could possibly challenge that.
While a woman receives merit for the Torah and mitzvos of her husband and children that she enables, that is not necessarily her main or only method of avodas Hashem. It all depends on the person and their particular interests, desires, abilities and situation.
The idea that everyone should have exactly the same lifestyle, with women always staying home, or women always working to support learning husbands, is simply not a requirement of Judaism — such visions, or real scenarios, of total conformity are a sociological or hashkafic phenomenon that are limited to particular communities in particular times and places.
The fact that rebeim get paid so little, in my opnion, does show either a lack of respect for the job or it correlates with the expertise necessary for the job. Even if it is important, it is not a highly specialized skill if the pay is so little.
not wanting to hijack the thread but I need to say that this statement is both false and sad. Sometimes the pay is little because people are poor, not because the job is not skilled.
yytz: The Rav said this many times and you can hear him stress this point on many of his tapes. Obviously he felt strongly that this is the proper way both from a halachic point of view and from a point of having a proper and traditional marital relationship. I don’t even think Rabbi Arush is disagreeing with the gadol. She can be in charge of financial matters on behalf of her husband the same way a company treasurer or accountant is in charge of corporate finances on behalf of the owners and not himself.
bym: The rav said this actually promotes and enhances shalom bayis. From personal experience and from speaking with many others I find that he is very correct.
Also, you misconstrued Ben Levi. Previous generations, unfortunately, weren’t financially or otherwise capable of meeting the ideal Torah scholar scenario. Now that we are able to, certainly we should as much as possible.
yytz – never read, but are you sure he doesn’t say/mean that she should balance the books, budget etc, but according to the values and decisions set down or agreed upon by/with husband ?
BYM – There are halachos governing this, as every aspect of life. If you think a husband today should set things up differently for practical reasons, that’s one thing. But if you are simply not comfortable with this arrangement, do some research and deal with it. (Of course, Sam2 already noted that the halacha is not quite as simple as that. I’m sure R’ Miller, too, was not focusing on the halacha, but rather on what he perceived as the proper attitude of wife to husband. If some of the people on this thread would read his description of the ideal marriage relationship, they’d probably want to arrange public burning’s of his books. Not exactly sympathetic to feminist ideas.)
Being a good teacher/Rebbe is def. a skilled enough job to deserve way more than the going salary.
GAW – if i were to do exhaustive study of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics, would that be ‘nothing’ ? I could probably find occupation in a different world than my own, publish books etc. yet practically speaking, in my personal life, it would be worthless. It is therefore conceivable to argue that if a women’s focus should be elsewhere, and she exerts much efforts in studying gemara, then its worthless – i.e. not bringing her to where she’s supposed to go. (As usual, I’m nor espousing my view, just saying I don’t see why you’re so incredulous about such a statement.)
And you know very well that even if such a statement was made, it had nothing to do with the speakers opinion about the ‘lowliness’ of women, so…
BYM
After Churba HaBayis many thing were less then ideal.
My point wa that you stated the notion of thousands of men dedicated soley to the pursiut of Dvar Hahshem is not rooted in tradition.
That is false.
“Of course. Just to add, what if she is a lawyer? Or doctor? or CEO of a large company? Or any other job that has traditionally belonged to the “man’s” sphere. A job that requires competitiveness and ambition.
Does her contribution matter as much as a man in the same position?
If my husband insited on doing this, I would probably insist that he not support me and I keep my own earnings. I cannot imagine a couple with even decent shalom bayis living this way. The money I earn/he earns goes into a JOINT account over which we BOTH have control. And my husband does not feel slighted in any way by this. “
That’s NOT a Torah Hashkafa at all. I agree women are quite successful in their career (her priority remains her career family is taken care of by the nanny, but no one can successfully do both and that’s not what Hashem wants from us.
A women’s priority is her home, her interests, hobbies, abilities are very important too. and the joint account is the way most people have it, and times changed we women like our independence that our grandmothers didn’t have but that’s not based from Torah hashkafa.
Logician: By the way, I’m not sure why we don’t assume that most women are just saying “Lo Nicha Li B’takanas Chachamim Zu.” There’s little reason for them not to.
Sam, because they have to actually say it to effect it. Otherwise the standard halacha applies, even if it would have been financially beneficial for her to have said it.
I was trying to find the paraphrase I cited from Rabbi Miller. In his sefer I found the following quote he wrote that is more relevant to the OP’s original question:
“The woman’s career and happiness are in her home – absolutely and entirely. Her husband, her children and her home are the expressions of her personality and her free will, and they are her chief forms of serving Hashem. The modern wife with a college degree and a job in secular professions is a misfit even in a non-Jewish home. The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce.”
(He wrote this about 40 years ago. So the point about non-Jewish homes probably changed since then. The point about divorce has been demonstrated with its rising rate together with the rising rate of demands for marital equality.)
BYM – yes indeed, but that’s not what you wrote. You said you would insist on separate accounts (as per halacha), and “you could not imagine normal shalom bayis living that way” – ???
GAW – many gezeiros still applicable despite reason no longer relevant. M”A in Hilchos Purim differentiates between Takanos and Chashashos. I was just referring to those that do.
I had looked again, just didn’t seem to read that way, sorry for the misunderstanding.
I agree that the scenario doesn’t sound great (although it would probably be indicative of a problem , more than creating one!), but would point out that it is the ideal scenario promoted by a great many Torah authorities, when mutually accepted.
BYM
Whether a woman is a CEO or some other such thing it matter’s little in the long run.
The same goes for a man.
In Judaic thought what we do for a living does not matter a great deal.
It’s a means to an end not an end in itself.
What we do from a “ruchniyus” perspective is what matters.
I disagree. Actually with the premise, even, that he would have to insist on it or that she would be uncomfortable with it. Aside from the halacha, it’s just natural in a marriage (and has been that way since the institution of marriage until women’s lib came along).
I think spouses not having access to the family finances are a recipe for disaster. What happens if one spouse is ill or dies? Each spouse should always have access and know whats going with all the important information. That includes the woman knowing the financial picture and where all the documents are as well as the husband knowing all the important information about the kids.
People talk about divorce as if its a bad thing. In the past, many women had to stay in abusive marriages and had no ability to leave. They had to deal with drugs, violence, cheating spouses etc. Baruch Hashem women have the ability to support themselves should they need to!
BYM – I disagree! I am a kollel wife from a more modern background, I’ll admit that when I first heard the halacha that any $ a woman makes halachically goes to her husband, the feminist voices from growing up balked that its not fair, doesn’t make sense etc.
However, in practice, as being the breadwinner and “money manager” in our home, even though I know halachically everything belongs to my husband, if you have a good marriage – he’s okay with me pretty much spending on whatever I need to, I discuss with him when I’m debating about something or unsure, and when you have a good marriage and respect eachother it does help shalom bayis…e/t is joint accounts – if I would have insisted on a separate account in my name only (and tried to figure out how that can stand halachically) I don’t think THAT would’ve been amazing for shalom bayis to say the least!
(I know the next Q will be what if you don’t have a good relationship if c”v things don’t work out though I don’t think its healthy for a relationship to think that way but to answer pple who have that Q, a Beis Din will decide what is fair ACCORDING TO TORAH PRINCIPLES)
There are ways halachically around these things, so if important to you for sure consult with daas torah and make sure to do it right – just in the case of a separate account etc, watch out for affecting your relationship with lack of trust etc in an adverse way – I agree with hashtorani (and rav miller) that if anything the halacha helps shalom bayis in a good marriage!
BYM There are those who say that yeshivish community is sexist while many would argue that it is gender-sensitive.
I do agree with many of the things you say, except the part about not hearing about men’s tafkid in the home. You haven’t heard them because you’re a woman and you’re not invited to those classes. If you went to seminary and they told you about the woman’s tafkid, it’s because as a woman you should know your responsibilities. Telling you your husband’s responsibilities is just a way to create sholom bayit issues. However, when you get married you receive a document clearly dictating your husband’s responsibilities to you.
“What happens, when you reapetedly see that graphic artists became graphic artists because society and upbringing told them they should be graphic artists, but when they try to do something THEY want, based on ABILITIES, like become sales managers or copy writers, they do a great job at it. What happens when what I am saying applies to 80% of the graphic artists?”
—Everyone has a choice. If a person throws away her intellect and instead become society’s puppet, that is her choice. Many people are happier not having to make the big decisions and would rather live in a community that makes those choices for them. There are quick, cheap courses which enable one to learn these skills and many who do become, for example, graphic artists, do so for this reason. Unless one is extremely talented, no one is getting rich off any of the generic careers, but to live the lifestyle they want to lead, they only need enough money to get by.
“If some of the people on this thread would read his description of the ideal marriage relationship, they’d probably want to arrange public burning’s of his books. Not exactly sympathetic to feminist ideas.”
—He said some pretty outrageous things, not just about women, and I have had that thought ;-p
Regarding finances: A marriage is not two separate entities who live together. When one earns money, that spouse earns the money for both of them. The fact that one of them actually earned the paycheck does not mean that he or she has control over the other. It is both of their money and it is shared. Both spouses should have equal rights to the moneys earned.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think what you are getting at is that women seem to be the go-to scapegoats. I have that feeling but my relatives who are yeshivish disagree, which is why they are yeshivish and I am not. Every community has its positives and negatives and if you feel that a certain community has more negatives than positives, you should find a new community. You may think they are blind to not see things the same way you do, but actually each person is entitled to his/her own opinion so it is not that they are blind but rather that they disagree.
If someone feels ‘stuck’ in a certain lifestyle, that is their perception and not the reality because if they truly believed a different life was more appealing, they would follow it or else they are a wimp. There is no reason to feel bad for someone who lives in a community that you don’t respect, because if that person is living a certain life, most likely it is indicative of their beliefs. Bottom line is, you should not live in a community that you feel is offensive to you.
People talk about divorce as if it’s a bad thing because it is.
Some time’s it’s needed sadly.
It’s still a tragedy.
Sometimed operations are needed to remove a foot.
It is done to save a life.
It’s still a tragedy.
Well said Ben Levi. When the barriers to divorce are lowered (and they shouldn’t be but have been) it causes unnecessary divorce, often for frivolous reasons often for convenience and often for reconcilable differences, where it wouldn’t have occurred otherwise and shouldn’t have but was due to its ease and the disposable nature of society we are unfortunate to live in.
hashtorani – you cannot claim historical precedent for the naturalness of that way of marriage, as you have to factor in the new phenomena of women being the sole or equal breadwinner.
interjection – Your clearly defined idea of finances in marriage are just not in accordance with halacha, as has been clarified on this thread several times already. If you are referring to what you believe should be mutually agreed upon these days, for whatever reason, then say so. But by definition, no, there is a question of control. And it is not indicative either way of the idea of the unity in marriage. There def. can be defined area’s of control in a marriage, due to each’s strength’s etc, irregardless of the strength of their bond.
Again BYM you have it wrong.
Marriage according to the Torah is so much more then a partnership.
It is a union , a creation of a unit that when working properly is a place theat the Shechinah itself makes home.
Yes it can be that one spuse is better off by ending this union becuase it did not work properly.
However it ending is a tragedy.
Every ending is by definition an operation to remove a limb, whether or not the end result is one spouse being better off.
Period.
It is one that cause’s the very Mizbeach to shed tears.
(Again I am sorry if it’s hard to join the non-jewish thought process with the Torah thought process which is completley and diametrically different.)
Edited to preserve the point
- The topic ‘Vicarious Accomplishment of Women’ is closed to new replies.