- This topic has 122 replies, 33 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 7 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I think the one whos doing the paying should be the one deciding where to budget.
I believe in traditional male/female roles, especially while dating.
If I offer to pay thats my decision
The “traditional male/female role” would demand that you should never offer to pay.
Sac – For some reason you equate romance with spending money on the girl.
“If I offer to pay thats my decision, but a gentleman gets me every time”
The truth is there are romantic men who don’t have money to spend and vice-versa. Maybe you should try role reversal on a date and see if you can just drop whatever on the guy.
Trust me, there are a lot of fakers, many guys can drop tons of money while they’re dating and then abuse and starve their family after the marriage. Test the guy’s Middos, not how much he drops, during the dating process.
cshapiro- it’s not about worth it or not – but maybe i’m coming from a different place than you. where i come from, there are people who really do not have a lot of money. if a guy spends only $10.00 on every date (which counting parking, drinks, etc. is much less than usual) and goes out with lots of girls several times each (as many, many do) – he can easily be spending thousands of dollars – if he’s learning, and his family isn’t wealthy, where is that money coming from? and wouldn’t if he had any money, rather use it to live on or for necessities?
he can’t be cheap and take a subway instead of borrowing or renting a car and he shouldn’t skimp on some drink, but to spend thousands of dollars that he doesn’t have on people he will never see again, seems to me to be pretty unfair.
s2021
…And you the one being budgeted can be uninterested.
Shlishi
That isn’t entirely true. The girl should *offer* to pay (or plan a date) after the 4/5 date. There is give and take in a relationship.
Health
Your mistake is that you read it as romance instead of romancing. The definition of Romancing is to court or to woo someone. It doesn’t even have to be about the money its an attitude, maybe some girls are ‘woo-ed’ by a $5 watered down drink in a noisy hotel lobby, I am not.
if a guy spends only $10.00 on every date
That is not really realistic. The guy has to drive from somewhere, and even if it is only queens to brooklyn to manhattan to brooklyn to queens, he is using a few gallons.
If he is coming from Lakewood, then figure half a tank of gas, 15-20 in tolls, and probably a rental car.
yes, i know, which makes my point even more.
“If he is coming from Lakewood…”
In which case he probably wont be using his money. Come to think of it, he will be using his dates parents’ money (should all things work out) for the next X amount of years, so its in his best interest to sweep her off her feet. 😉
i don’t know if romance is the right word to use here. the way the world/society has made it, romance seems like such a goyish concept. yes the boy can be sweet,giving,…u’ll smile at each other sweetly on a date… but don’t put the word romance/romantic there! i feel like it takes away all the kedusha of the concept.
u don’t marry a boy who after having a romantic date, you marry him if his personality, hashkafos… were compatible with yours.
take romance out of the equation.
ps, you might feel really good and excited and happy after a date, but get the word romance out of here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
don’t mean to sound holier than thou in any way shape or form, i really respect everyone on here, just by the fact that we are all part of one whole, but just like everyone else is entitled, i’m giving my humble opinion
romance seems like such a goyish concept.
That is very unfortunate.
It is not a goyish concept. It is a human concept.
Romance is the most important part of the spousal relationship. Dating is not an interview for a job.
I think you should ask someone you respect about this.
This is going to go down a slippery slope fast.
yummy cupcake
All I can say to you is that I’m sorry for you that you feel that way. Maybe one day when you get a little older you will realize that not everything in the male/female relationship beyond sharing like hashkafos is ‘goyish’.
popa- I think all yummy meant to point out was that you should not date a guy and marry him because of ROMANCE but rather for real reasons. do your hashkafos match? personality? yes- there is love and romance between guys and gals but that is not why you should marry someone
adorable:
I think I would actually say the opposite.
The purpose of marriage is for the romance, and the hashkafos and personality must also match, or it will not work out.
I completely agree with yummy about the concept of romance being entirely non-Jewish and foreign to us.
popa- whatever the case is there has to be romance for it to work and the rest also has to match!
Thats ridiculous. Those who say Romance is goyish, foreign, and unnecessary- r u married??
I think that yummy cupcake is correct in the context of dating.
I think that popa_bar_abba is correct in the context of marriage.
The terms used in our surrounding culture to describe romance/infatuation are telling: “head over heels”, “falling [in love]”, “smitten”, etc. All describe a loss of grounding.
Infatuation is not intrinsically bad and it is a vital part of human nature. During the dating process, however, I think it’s important to keep one’s eyes as open as possible despite the infatuation… and then fall completely “head over heels” after marriage. In other words, “romance” shouldn’t substitute for substantial conversation.
Avram
Romance and Infatuation are not the same thing.
Romance or Romancing someone is the act of loving/courting them. Infatuation is an emotion.
Merriam-Websters
Definition of ROMANCE
1
a (1) : a medieval tale based on legend, chivalric love and adventure, or the supernatural (2) : a prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious (3) : a love story especially in the form of a novel b : a class of such literature
2
: something (as an extravagant story or account) that lacks basis in fact
3
: an emotional attraction or aura belonging to an especially heroic era, adventure, or activity
4
: love affair
5
capitalized : the Romance languages
Origin of ROMANCE
Middle English romauns, from Anglo-French romanz French, narrative in French, from Medieval Latin Romanice in a vernacular (as opposed to Latin), from Late Latin Romanus Gallo-Romance speaker (as opposed to a Frank), from Latin, Roman
First Known Use: 14th century
Well, thank you Avram in MD for agreeing with me at least in part.
Different communities have different notions of dating, and certainly communities where dating is 2 nights, do not have a concept of developing a romantic relationship before engagement.
But, communities where dating is over a month, are certainly attempting to establish romance during the dating process.
which dictionary definition above of romance are you referring to?
and dating over a month?? is that in MO communities? in yeshivish circles dating is typically between 4 – 8 dates over 2 – 3 weeks before engagement.
Sacrilege,
Romance and Infatuation are not the same thing.
Romance or Romancing someone is the act of loving/courting them. Infatuation is an emotion.
Perhaps I am working with differing definitions of romance. I agree that nice gestures demonstrating affection and interest should be made while dating, and that should only increase with marriage.
When I was thinking romance, however, I lumped it with infatuation because, in our surrounding culture, romance is used as a tool to generate infatuation. This unfortunately causes some to close their eyes to their partners’ faults while dating, only to open them after marriage. Ideally it should be the other way around.
popa_bar_abba,
If by establishing romance you mean establishing goodwill and demonstrating emotional and spiritual compatibility, I agree.
Dating is not the time to be on a budget. (that will come later, AFTER you’rr married).
A fair budget:
1st date = $50
2nd date = $50
3rd date = afternoon in the park / indoor mall, so the $ should be minimal
4th date = this needs to be in the $100 range, as now you’re really serious
And if you can’t swing a budget like this, how will you pay $800-900 for rent?
This is not a game.. its the major leagues. Come prepared or stay home with mommy!
“$800-900 for rent?”
If you’re living in a car….
One of my teachers in high school said that the goyish world has twisted the word love into a bad word. Love is a beautiful thing that Hashem set aside for a husband and a wife. Just because the outside world has corrupted the word, it does not mean it is a goyish concept!
cshapiro- I didn’t opine on whether or not you’re not worth it. What I said was that the dislike is mutual. If a couple has mismatched financial values then (traditionally) the girl will call the guy cheap and the guy will call the girl high-maintenance (I suppose it could go the other way at least in theory).
Point is, find someone who shares your values. Otherwise, bad. It is the bane of women to call their provider “cheap”.
If you’re living in a car….
Ok, so its been a while since I’ve looked at the basement apt rental market. Still, OOT is not a possiblity at 8-900?
Sac: or the big time sticks.
though right now my rent isn’t that high ($500 a month (which includes everything) as I live at my sister’s house) $800-$900?!? Not including utilities, food, etc maybe.
But to get back on topic (sort of) what does one do if they don’t know what the girl sees as being miserly/extravagant?
😀 Zuberman! 😀
popa_bar_abba wrote:
romance seems like such a goyish concept.
That is very unfortunate.
It is not a goyish concept. It is a human concept.
Romance is the most important part of the spousal relationship. Dating is not an interview for a job.
I think you should ask someone you respect about this.
Agreed. See Rashi on Shemos 38:8
By the way, let’s revive http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/funny-shidduch-stories/
The dictionary provides 7 definitions of romance, all of which I quoted above (i.e. medieval tale, imaginary characters, something that lacks basis in fact, heroic era, adventure, etc.) Which definition of the term that the dictionary defines it are you referring to?
bpt
You are right, basements will run you about 900-1100 these days, but a basement? *shudder*
OOT prices vary. Cleveland ridiculously cheap…. LA insanely expensive.
Shlishi
Perhaps you forgot to cut and paste the first half of the definitions?
a. A love affair.
b. Ardent emotional attachment or involvement between people; love: They kept the romance alive in their marriage for 35 years.
c. A strong, sometimes short-lived attachment, fascination, or enthusiasm for something: a childhood romance with the sea.
(I can Google too)
The dictionary provides 7 definitions of romance, all of which I quoted above (i.e. medieval tale, imaginary characters, something that lacks basis in fact, heroic era, adventure, etc.) Which definition of the term that the dictionary defines it are you referring to?
I was referring to definition 5, the Romance languages.
I think it is very important for a husband and wife to be able to communicate in Italian, since that is the language of food.
I did provide the entire dictionary entry for the word. In any event, lets go with how you defined it.
You said earlier dating is about “The guy that gets the girl is the one who romances her.”
Now you define romance as A love affair/Ardent emotional attachment/short-lived attachment, fascination, etc.
You really are asking why you are being told that is a very un-Jewish concept and inappropriate to expect from a date???
shlishi-
i would drop the last two and add hashakic match-up
but it IS a jewish concept – if your dating for marriage which in most cases seen in the cr- you ARE, so we are good in that case
so you are redefining the word to kasher it. thus it no longer is how the dictionary defines the word. why not just find an appropriate word rather than an inappropriate one?
And considering 6 out of 7 definitions are very damning from a Jewish and moral perspective, and the one definition that may be semi-kashered with some effort is “Ardent emotional/love”, it may be applicable in the context of marriage but certainly not in the context of dating (as Avram in MD mentioned earlier in the thread), and certainly romance is not applicable in dating that is not on the verge of engagement.
oh so you are saying “i’m just about to get engaged maybe NOW would be a good time to start liking the girl im going to marry in 3 months”
sounds amazing
No, the definition of the word is not “liking”. Look at the dictionary. (It is pasted above. Some entries are love affair/supernatural/untruth/short-lived.) And I said it would be especially inappropriate for initial dating.
How about you live your loveless emotionless life, according to how you think the Torah “mandates”.
And I’ll live my romance, love filled heretical life and we’ll see who is happier in the end. Deal?
by romance, i think people mean – make it romantic – showing the girl that you care about her, etc. – which means buying her chocolate, flowers, etc.
for people who only date a few times before getting engaged – this should be done in marriage and maybe, while engaged.
for others, should be done, while dating (once it’s going somewhere), engaged, and while married.
Being romantic when married is a very Jewish concept.
question only is when dating and/or engaged – and that depends on who people are and where they are coming from – when in doubt, ask a rav. may be extremely surprised at his answer.
being romantic on first few dates when getting to know the person, may not be a Jewish idea – that may be the fluff that just confuses issues and don’t allow the people to see if they are right for each other or not.
bina: see what it means. it does not mean choclate, flowers, etc. you are not understanding what it means.
sac: maybe heretical, but emotional life definitely has nothing to do with it. according to the thesaurus the _antonym_ of romance is truth. people who _truly_ are romantic are the ones who end up in divorce court.
“by romance, i think people mean – make it romantic – showing the girl that you care about her, etc. – which means buying her chocolate, flowers, etc.”
I agree (that this is the definition that most people have of romance or romancing), but I think it’s wrong. Why should how much somebody cares about you have to be expressed with money? Why can’t you judge how much he cares about you from the way he treats you? Why do girls seem to need to have money thrown at them in order to be convinced a guy likes them? Weren’t you all just blasting judging things by externals in the “shidduchim and weight” topic?
Al shlosha dvarim ha’olam omed, al kesef, al gelt, v’al mamon
lol!
mw13: yes, when deciding who to marry – see who person is, if similar hashkafos, you’re comfotable with person, and not un-attracted to person.
but, once you’re married…definitely how he treats you is most important, but what helps marriage is when feel appreciated and loved, and somehow chocolate and flowers speak very eloquently.
are you married? if you are a girl, i think you would understand without me explaining. and if you’re a guy, your wife would probably very much appreciate you giving her these things at times.
and by the way, neither is very expensive. one’s wife is definitely worth it.
also, according to rav Dessler – ahavah increases through giving, so by husband giving to wife, it increases his love for her.
shlishi – i didn’t read the definitions; i’m just using the word, the way many people mean it nowadays.
if they mean other things, then, what i said does not apply.
binahyeseira:
“how he treats you is most important, but what helps marriage is when feel appreciated and loved, and somehow chocolate and flowers speak very eloquently.”
I’m with you until the second comma. Again, why does love and appreciation have to expressed through all these gifts? The only thing this shows is that he’s got money to spend, not that he cares about you in slightest.
“if you are a girl, i think you would understand without me explaining.”
And if you were a guy, you would understand what we’re saying on the “shidduchim and weight” topic. But I’m not a girl, and I don’t see how chocolate and flowers show you anything but the guy’s finances, and certainly not his deepest feelings. Sounds pretty shallow to me. (Which, as I was pointed out before, is exactly the type of thing that everybody was bashing on the “shidduchim and weight” topic.
“according to rav Dessler – ahavah increases through giving, so by husband giving to wife, it increases his love for her.”
Then shouldn’t she be getting him chocolate and flowers too?
Back to the bridge vs. tunnel — there is another reason he may not want to take the tunnel. He could be claustrophobic.
We have a new tunnel here in Haifa, and I took a bus through it the other day. I thought long and hard before getting on the bus because I didn’t know if I’d be able to handle a ride through such a long tunnel. Turns out I can.
Sac -“It doesn’t even have to be about the money its an attitude, maybe some girls are ‘woo-ed’ by a $5 watered down drink in a noisy hotel lobby, I am not.”
If all it takes for you to marry someone is that you should be “wooed”, I’d be very careful if I were you. I know a lot of smooth, un-savory characters/con-men, whom are very good at this, but marrying them is probably not the best idea.
” Come to think of it, he will be using his dates parents’ money (should all things work out) for the next X amount of years, so its in his best interest to sweep her off her feet. ;)”
Too bad this didn’t happen to me the first time around -well, you never know -maybe I’ll have better luck the next time!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.