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i was thinking of becoming a vegetarian, and i was just wondering if there was any halachic aspect to that.
thanks!
Start with hilchos tiloim.
Yes there are halachic issues, and hashkafa issues as well. The commercialization of meat production can lead to real problems. If you look real close, or read too much, you can begin to distrust mass produced kashrus. The Bavli in Chullin makes the points that would rule out casual meat consumption in a derech eretz sense. You also might want to consider that an animal designed to eat grass gets poisoned and sick from grain based diets, and needs to be medicated and stuck with needles to make it to market.
Well, Hashem intended for Mankind to be vegetarians – it was only after the Mabul that He allowed the eating of meat, but ALWAYS with some restrictions (no eiver min hachai). When Bnei Yisroel ate meat, the restrictions went even further.
If we were vegetarian, however, and when the Beis Hamikdash is rebuilt Bimheira b’yameinu, how will vegetarians fulfill the mitzvah of certain types of korbonos, especially korbon Pesach?
All things should be in moderation, including the eating of meat.
What about the financial aspect?
Bizman Hazeh there is no issue of being a vegetarian. When the Beis Hamikdash is Kayam everyone will need to eat a bit of meat on Yom Tov.
“i was just wondering if there was any halachic aspect to that”
Many great rabbis have been vegetarians, so apparently in our times any halachic issues — if indeed there are any — are resolvable. One of the most famous ones alive today is Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, former Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom.
Why do you want to become a vegetarian?
The Medrash in numerous places says ????? ??? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???
For instance see ????? ??? (?????) ???? ?? ???? ?
????? ??? (?????) ???? ???? ???? ??
???? ?????? (????) ???? ???? ???? ?? and several other places.
Additionally, according to the Rambam’s explanation of Korbanos, presumably there would be no need for them in the third Beis Hamikdash. However, the Rambam himself seems to believe that there will be korbanos. And there have been alternatives suggested as for the meaning of the medrash.
Why would you ask such a question here, and not to your Rav?
is this for health reasons?
Eat what you want and be happy
If you dont like or want to eat meat, dont. It is no simcha to eat something you dont like.
I was at someones house as a guest and they served me chopped liver and I hate chopped liver, IMO its one of the worst foods ever invented. I ate it because I didnt want to embarrass my host, but I will never serve it in my house. It was no simcha to eat it. I dont care for Chicken either. I hardly ever buy it. It is no simcha to eat chicken if you dont like it.
Suppose I declare that I don’t give terumah to kohanim, because I disapprove of hereditary classes. Is that ok, since we don’t give terumah to kohanim b’zman hazeh anyway?
And even when moshiach comes, I can just not grow stuff.
If that’s the case, your an apikores and should start posting on Catholic world news…
It’s not that good to be an apikores, I would suggest you stop and be a normal human being like everyone else.
You’re not disagreeing that animals were created for us to enjoy (I assume you’re including eating, or that would be irrelevant), yet you want to minimize their deaths… don’t worry yet if your position is wrong, first figure it out
Why is it apikorsus to feel bad for animals?
“Why is it apikorsus to feel bad for animals?”
It isn’t, and in fact Rambam cites several mitzvot from the Torah has being motivated by compassion for animals. See Guide to the Perplexed III:48.
“nobody said we have to eat animals.”
Only on Yom Tov in Yerushalayim when we have a Temple.
This isn’t an issue of feeling bad for animals, which nobody claimed was apikorsus (straw man, anyone?). It’s an issue of having a value system which is not derived from, and not in accordance with, the Torah.
“It’s an issue of having a value system which is not derived from, and not in accordance with, the Torah.”
Ignoring the suffering of animals is not in accordance with the Torah. There are numerous halachot regarding proper treatment of animals, and Tzar Baalei Chayim is considered by Chazal to be a mitzvah from the Torah itself.
“nobody claimed was apikorsus”
A commenter claimed that the OP was an apikoros.
Charlie, don’t be dense. Yes, it is very wrong to live by a moral code which opposes the morals of the Torah. And yes, moral vegetarianism opposes the morals of the Torah.
The fact that it happens to do so by amplifying out of proportion other Torah morals is inconsequential.
Shaul thought he was doing a mitzva by saving the animals of Amalek to bring as karbonas. Hashem said, I don’t need your korbanos, I need you to do the ratzon Hashem.
I personally eat meat and I dont think Shechita is immoral, but if you saw how some of the animals are raised you might not nessasarily think its so moral
Veal for instance , many times the animals are immobolized so they cannot move and are massaged, its gives the meat a certain less fat taste.
Foie Gras, the Goose are force fed to enlarge the liver
Chickens are placed in coops that are too crowded and the chickens start to peck each other (Many people only eat Free range chickens for this reason)
Cattle are fed the remains of other cattle (Cattle are herbavoires not carnivores) and this was how mad cow disease spread
Charlie. Feeling bad is one thing, but changing your lifestyle for stupidity we don’t believe in is called being an apikores.
Ignoring the suffering of animals is not in accordance with the Torah.
Neither is abstaining from meat for moral reasons.
A commenter claimed that the OP was an apikoros.
Not for caring about animals.
I think ZD makes a good point. If someone abstains from meat because he feels that the specific manner in which livestock is treated today is cruel, that’s different than if someone feels that killing an animal for human consumption is immoral.
We have to be careful when labeling vegetarians as acting against the Torah.
If someone believes that eating meat is fundamentally wrong because we have no moral authority to kill animals for our own needs when we can get adequate nutrition from other sources – I think that’s against the Torah.
If someone feels repulsed by the thought of eating meat because they picture the animals in their mind, but don’t see it as fundamentally wrong, I don’t think that’s against the Torah.
If someone feels that the practices of industrial meat production cause undue suffering to animals, unsanitary conditions, or even potential kashrus issues, I don’t think that’s against the Torah.
If someone wants to become a vegetarian for health reasons (e.g., following the Fuhrman diet), but doesn’t see eating meat as morally wrong, I don’t think that’s against the Torah.
The Rambam (Berachos 5:3) makes it very clear that from a perspective of rachamim killing animals to eat should not be allowed. However, since eating animals can be beneficial, the Torah ALLOWED us to kill animals in the most merciful way i.e. shechita (Moreh Nevuchim 3:48). Thus the Torah is not forbidding one to be sensitive to animals, the Torah is allowing one to override this sensitivity for practical needs.
Yefas Toar?
There are some previous CR threads on this topic, in case you want to see what I and several other of these posters said previously.
Rabbi Dovid Sears has a book (The Vision of Eden) explaining rabbinic opinions for and against vegetarianism. A draft of the book is available for free online. It’s very interesting — highly recommended. Many famous rabbis have either been vegetarians or praised vegetarianism (the Sdei Chemed is in the latter category, for example).
While some hold that eating meat is required on Shabbos or Yom Tov, the majority opinion is that it is not required. The head of the Jewish Vegetarians of North America is an Orthodox Jew.
In my view the main issue with vegetarianism and veganism is hashkafic. Despite what some people claim, there is nothing wrong with being a vegetarian because you want to minimize animal suffering. It is an aveira to cause unnecessary suffering to animals, and modern animal production methods certainly do that, beyond any doubt. So being vegetarian, or near-vegetarian (eating meat only on Shabbos and Yom Tov, for example, as Rabbi Lazer Brody recently recommended for health reasons), is way to be machmir about tzaar baalei chayim.
What is problematic is the animal rights belief that animals have the right not to be eaten, or that we have an obligation not to eat them or use their milk or eggs at all. By that logic, the korbanos would be immoral, and so would tallesim and tefillin and sifrei Torah, c”v’s. You can certainly be a vegetarian for animal welfare reasons yet not think it is inherently wrong to ever eat or use animals.
Another hashkafic problem is that vegetarianism, and especially veganism, has kind of become its own religion. Many vegans are very militant and associate mainly with other vegans. Thus it is hashkafically dangerous to become vegan, as one may become infected with heretical notions and believe in an all-encompassing worldview that replaces Yiddishkeit in your life.
Realistically, vegetarians are never going to convince the whole world. And eating meat occasionally is not that different from becoming completely vegetarian, in terms of its impact on the market. So in my view the best way to reduce animal suffering without endangering your overall avodas Hashem is to be a moderate vegetarian or near-vegetarian (eating meat, fish, dairy or eggs at least in small amounts or on occasion) while supporting organizations (animal welfare-oriented, not animal rights) that work toward improving the conditions in modern animal agriculture.
As an aside, one halachic advantange to being a vegetarian (even a lacto-ovo-pesco vegetarian) is that if your kitchen is only dairy, you don’t have to worry about meat/milk mistakes.
I think there is a real debate if Foie Gras can ever been kosher because of the way the animals are treated even though it is a kosher animal
I personally wouldnt eat it, even if it was. I also dont eat Veal for similar reasons because of the way the animal is treated
“What is problematic is the animal rights belief that animals have the right not to be eaten, or that we have an obligation not to eat them or use their milk or eggs at all”
That is not this discussion. It is clear that it is permissible to kill animals for practical use. If one wants to forego such uses then there would be no valid reason to kill animals.
“I think there is a real debate if Foie Gras can ever been kosher because of the way the animals are treated even though it is a kosher animal”
That is utterly incorrect. The question is if they become treifos, not because of some tree hugging attitude.
The halachos of tzar baalei chayim do not change with the times. Almost all the complaints of tzar baalei chayim that all these radical vegetarians hock about are not halachic problems. Why don’t you look up in the Gemara how they used to do shechita of korbonos.
The Gemara talks about the change and tzar baalei chayim never enters the discussion.
“Chickens are placed in coops that are too crowded and the chickens start to peck each other (Many people only eat Free range chickens for this reason)”
It is generally chickens that lay eggs that are kept in cages (and a lot of this has to do with protecting them from catching bird flu, which would require destruction of all the animals), ones that are raised for meat are typically kept corrals or barn like structures. Free range just means they let the roam outside the corral. They are not kept continually in crates.
However all are transferred to crates to be brought for processing, which includes shechita in case of kosher. Even free range. Either way, all this would be permitted, and would not be tzar baalei chayim.
If you want to make a point, please start with facts.
It is not tree hugging to think its wrong to shove a pipe down an animals throat and use a plunger to shove the food down its throat to cause the liver to expand.
I am not familiar with the history of Fois Gras was available in the time of the Gemorah, nor was much of the industrialness of todays meat processing. If you think its OK to shove a pipe down a birds throat and use a plunger to force feed it for your gastronomical enjoyment, then you really have no compasion
“Yes, it is very wrong to live by a moral code which opposes the morals of the Torah.”
I agree. People who don’t think that proper care and compassion for animals are important are opposing the morals of the Torah.
nisht: I’m not sure why you think that it’s not Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim to transport chickens in too-small crates in very cramped spaces.
Sam2; so it is back to the commercial pressure that technology tosses tzaar baalei chaim out the window. There id a video about Zoglobeck that you can look up, or look into any bird shechita where the use the rotary trolley method.
I agree. People who don’t think that proper care and compassion for animals are important are opposing the morals of the Torah.
lol, is that the best you can do for a response?
Pretend that certain parts of the Torah don’t exist; only the parts that you like?
I’m sure you’re totally in good faith when you do that, just trying to do ratzon Hashem.
ZD,
It is a tree hugging attitude to assign the ?????? about ?????? ??? to an issue of ??? ???? ????. Because that was never the halachic issue. It is dishonest to use this as proof as to what you may or may not do in using animals for food.
FYI, as most of us know, geese were never brought as ??????. What it does say in ???? ???? is ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??????
So you see clearly that this is not a problem of ??? ???? ????.
And you also have the Gemarra that explains ????? ???? ??????. A tree higher would assert that it prohibited because of their misunderstood concept of ??? ???? ????. And they of course would not be in conformity with ultimate basis of what is moral, the Torah.
Like the misguided flock at HIR and their Rabbits who’s mislead them and try to replace the Torah with their own self defined phony moral code that is ????? ?????.
Sam,
I have no idea where you took that from anything I said. I was talking about ZD false contention about free range chickens.
But to respond, there is nothing wrong with transporting the chickens using industry norms. Excessive cruelty, obviously is not the same as industry norm and frankly does not seem logical, it would result in many more treifos, and this would definitely be counterproductive.
Rav Ovadia Yosef prohibits foi gras because of tzaar baalei chaim concerns.
Trefos is not as big an issue as you think, They just sell the chickens as non kosher, yes it will get less, but if you pack more chickens in the carrier you will more than make up for the loss.
It isnt like the olden days where a trief animal was a big loss, today its fairly small and you still make money, just not as much
“Pretend that certain parts of the Torah don’t exist; only the parts that you like?”
Where in this thread have I suggested that? In fact, some others have seemed to ignore tzar baalei chaim; why aren’t you pestering them?
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein forbade production of milk-fed veal calves because of tzar baalei chaim concerns.
In fact, some others have seemed to ignore tzar baalei chaim; why aren’t you pestering them?
Nobody is ignoring tzaar baalei chaim, just putting it into perspective. If you would check the sources (I’ll provide if you’d like) you would see that tzaar baalei chaim is muttar for human benefit.
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein forbade production of milk-fed veal calves because of tzar baalei chaim concerns.
Interesting. Can you source that please?
Animals need to be protected, but make no mistake – they were put on this earth to serve MAN, not vice versa. That said, we DO need to be makpid on tzaar baalei chayim, and that is why we have so many halachos that revolve around that hashkafa, i.e. kilayim, feeding one’s animals before eating one’s own meals, making sure to milk the cows on time, and possibly (though we are not allowed to say it is THE reason), shiluach hakein.
The whole sedra of Noach, teaches us a lesson about responsibility towards animals, but it likewise gives us the reason why animals were now permitted to mankind for consumption, though within boundaries. Ultimately, they are here for OUR benefit and use, and Man has dominion over them, according to Hashem’s own words.
“Trefos is not as big an issue as you think, They just sell the chickens as non kosher, yes it will get less, but if you pack more chickens in the carrier you will more than make up for the loss.
It isnt like the olden days where a trief animal was a big loss, today its fairly small and you still make money, just not as much”
You are just showing your ignorance again.
They do not use sell the treife chickens, only cattle. And there is a significant loss that is one of the reasons why kosher meat is so much more expensive.
And there are not so many treifos from the crates (there are occasionally, I am not saying not)those are typically disposed of immediately and are probably not allowed to be used for human consumption at all.
Of course that is only my observation based on visiting a shlachthoiz and speaking to people who have worked in many, not just baseless conjecture.
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