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to gavra who wrote
This is the first logical argument that I have heard against vaccination yet.
thank you, but it was not my intention to argue against, just to make the issue a bit clearer. I seem to have succeeded.
I also don’t think the comparison to the chradi draft issue is completely analogous.
gavra – sorry, call it what you want, but as i stated before, i just don’t buy it. my kids are perfectly healthy k”h, b”h, they are active, they eat properly, take vitamins, and have no medical issues except when they took vaccines 3 years ago. since then we avoid certain vaccines.
truthsharer- i don’t know how to use bold type so i used caps. i have some names at home of which you can read of, but i will only be home late tonight. i don’t emember their names but i’ll try to remember to look them up so that i can post them later.
again i have been on the fence with this issue. but how can people be so ignorant and ignore all the horror stories ( and yes there are so many out there) related to vaccines? yes they prevent many disasters, but not without terrible risks and other disasters to those who get vaccinated.
secondly, what’s up with HPV? some posters mention rabbonim, well, this is where perhaps rabbonim SHOULD BE informed, and PROTEST AGAINST its use for our frum B.Y. girls and frum communities. anyone have a response to this particular vaccine? im all ears.
With so many people being misguided by their doctors, and all of you just parrot everything they say, lets set some things straight:
1. no one has to have their child vaccinated in order to attend school, its a law, as it was quoted earlier. There is no such a thing as a jew must vaccinate, because the religious belief has to be a personal religious belief, nothing to do with your jewish religion.
2. If the vaccine really worked , your child shouldn’t catch anything from the unvaccinated , but I guess most of you really don’t believe that it works at all. What would happen if a vaccinated child does get the “disease”, you will always blame unvaccinated people.
3. Its really interesting that people who vaccinate don’t have to give any reference to anything real. They can make up anything and it will be believed. If I don’t vaccinate , I have to bring “proof” for everything I say. Just check your inserts of the vaccine and you will see how many children died during the trial. I don’t need my kids to be the guinea pigs, too.
4. It is so sad that the jews who vaccinate hate jews who don’t vaccinate, but it isn’t the other way around. I don’t care if you vaccinate or not, and I am not mad at you if you harm your kids with vaccines, I feel sorry for them, but will never yell and berate you. its only the vaccinated who are afraid of everything in this world, they may catch everything because of the “unvaccinated”. You people don’t want to take responsibility for anything.
5. I do not care if Me and my children get these diseases. They had a place in our childhood and there is nothing wrong if my children get it too.
6. You all remind me of the tower in Bavel, you are all trying to fight God, but you will never win, you can never destroy his creations, so good luck on trying.
7. The ones that are sacrificing their kids for the Molech , are the people who vaccinate, they listen blindly to ridiculous reasons to vaccinate , to keep their kids “healthy” but you are putting them on the alter and destroying them, vaccines kill, maim, and destroys the immune system. Again ,read the insert created by the manufacturer.
Doctors see many adverse reactions to vaccines, but don’t report it, unfortunately, I have heard from many pediatricians that they never saw an adverse reaction. Shame on them ,they look the other way and will blame the parent, the child or anyone else for the child getting sick. And of course, they are causing most of the leukemia children are suffering with. So be scared of a virus , but not from cancer. I feel so sorry for all the children who have been killed by the vaccine. Its the same like taking a loaded gun and shooting your child. Unfortunately , many uninformed parents who went to give their 6 month old children the MMR vaccine, may see the terrible results in the years to come.
secondly, what’s up with HPV? some posters mention rabbonim, well, this is where perhaps rabbonim SHOULD BE informed, and PROTEST AGAINST its use for our frum B.Y. girls and frum communities. anyone have a response to this particular vaccine? im all ears.
I am working on something for the HPV vaccine. Jewish girls are having terrible side effects like seizures. I am in touch with some drs. will keep you posted.
Just because your kids are healthy now doesn’t mean anything. All it means is that they most likely never had contact with a serious disease. What happens if while walking down the street someone with a disease coughs and while grabbing for a tissue, touches your kids coat. Your kid tugs on his coat to keep warm and then promptly picks his nose, as kids do.
Your kid’s body now has that little disease crawling through it.
If he’s vaccinated, the body will know how to respond and will promptly sound the alarm.
If he’s not vaccinated, the body will not know what to do and will be overwhelmed by the growing force of the disease. Depending on the disease, the growing force may be fatal.
Now, if your kid goes get a vaccine, he may get a headache, he may get flulike symptons, he may get a rash, might even get bruising, and yes, .000002% chance get real sick.
Bottom line is that to not vaccinate is idiotic and more importantly it is dangerous for others. You want to be all foo-foo, eat your vegan foods while wearing Birkenstocks, go right ahead. But once your actions have reactions with others, that’s where it has to stop.
I really hope chance is a troll. Otherwise, it’s just too shocking.
I absolutely agree with rebdoniel, charliehall and others. It is absolutely shocking that such supposedly intelligent people let themselves be captured by the populistic conspiracy theories on the supposedly horrible side effects of immunization programs.
I will have all my children vaccinated 100% according to the NHS guidelines without a single exception, and I very much hope others do the same.
Here in Gateshead measles is also widespread now. I must note though that it is also widespread amongst the non-Jewish population of the wider area (North East England) for a few months already. Haven’t looked at any statistics, so I don’t know whether the percentage is higher in the Jewish community, but I feel this might very well be the case.
And, rebdoniel and charliehall: Shkoyach for not hiding your identities. I also don’t really hide my identity (everyone in Gateshead knows who I am) and maybe I’ll switch back to using my real name some time as well.
chance: “I am working on something for the HPV vaccine. Jewish girls are having terrible side effects like seizures. I am in touch with some drs. will keep you posted.”
Wait- so ONLY Jewish girls are getting seizures from the HPV vaccine?
That’s an interesting one…
In the end, it’s a cost/benefit analysis. And yes, there are benefits. Just remember- it’s all of the people who vaccinated against polio and diphtheria in the past (and still do) who are preventing your child from having even a tiny chance of contracting those diseases.
chance – #3 is such a strong valid point. i bet you all the money in the world that NOT ONE poster here asked their doctor before they got vaccinated, ” hey doc, what are the risks”
and i bet the doctor will NOT say anything truthful. they will NOT show the vaccination insert, and they will NEVER tell of bad reactions other patience of theirs might have had.
but, no, the great, heilige pediatrian/doctor/GP, said its good so it must be good!
like blind sheep we follow…
Tzaddiq, name me one kid that died during vaccine trials.
And you’re wrong. I’ve asked doctors about reactions to vaccines and I was told what to expect.
tzaddiq: You want to take it back now to avoid the payoff?
I can GUARANTEE that that’s not the case for at least someone here- if it turns out that everyone is a bunch of blind sheep (doubtful- you’re welcome, guys) then I’ll tell you that my mom always asked a doctor BESIDES OUR PEDIATRICIAN before giving us vaccines. (The doctor is my mom’s friend who also gives us our strep cultures :)- she knows us very well, is an excellent doctor and vaccinates her own kids.)
The Chassidishe Gatesheader, the reason why England has a high rate is because they are still suffering from the whole MMR debacle. It was originally a UK based doctor so it had the biggest effect in the UK.
Tzadiq,
you live in LaLa land IVe encountered several pediatricians in my travels all have warned me of what to expect with vaccinations.
Im curious what bad reactons you think are listed in the vaccine inserts. Speak to Doctors most are quite forthcoming if not find one who is.
chance, “Died during the trial” Lol! though I think youv’e outed yourself as a troll.
when “outsiders” try helping us I’m wery.
When people like Dr. Tendler (or in this case rebdoniel), people who have severe prejudice against us (the “ULTRA” orthodox)try to “help” I’m sceptical.
(My kids ARE vaccinated, btw.)
yitzchokm, your post makes no sense. Please elaborate. Also, because YWN cares about respect, it’s Rabbi Dr. Tendler, not merely Dr. Tendler.
I care about children. I don’t like seeing children being infected with herpes, r”l, and neither do I like seeing children being abused or molested (and their abusers given a free pass), nor being the victims of poor parenting choices not to vaccinate or not to feed adequate fruits and vegetables. Helping people make healthy choices and giving others the knowledge to take wellness into their own hands is what I feel called to do.
truthsharer-
why is it “rabbi” tendler? of course he’s more lerned than me, ect, but s/o who’s tafkid seems to be destroying my (frum) way of life loses the name “rabbi”. as does avi amsalem, ect.
and so,
when people like tendler try to “help” and “educate” – be weary.
edited for inaccurate information
Mixing together very different issues such as polio, MMR and herpes vaccination (all that spiced with comments about child abuse and MBP) and singling out “the frum community” shows quite clearly what the agenda really is.
Gavra at work, if you wish to know about why we did and did not this or that choice in regards to vaccination, please write TYW so that they should post a verified confidentiality statement (I assume you are a medical doctor, else you have no business to know) and a disposable email address which you can read. I will be happy to respond.
Your pernicious worldview is obvious, Yitzchok M.
The Haredim have invented a strawman in their minds. They perceive a conspiracy against them that doesn’t exist.
Asking people to follow the law and act like normal, civilized, honorable citizens is not an attack against your way of life.
just to clarify a few things-
1- people who are concerned about the unvaccinated children spreading whatever virus to their vaccinated children as much as it spreading to their children that are too young for the vaccination or have weakened immune systems that are unable to become immune from the vaccination
2- yes there are people that can not be vaccinated because of real life threatening situations like egg allergies, and yes they should rely on herd immunity to keep them safe, but once everyone starts having their own reasons why it won’t work, the method fails!
3- I’m sorry about your child’s peanut allergy, tzaddiq, but in the scheme of things, I think you prefer that your child be allergic to peanuts than blind ChV. (he may yet grow out of the allergy like my brother did)
4- the autisim link has been disproven! in fact the greater number of diagnoses are just because we are better about testing and diagnosing than we used to be. I actually recently heard of a family where they stopped vaccinating the kids because they were worried about the autism link, and then the next kid born, never vaccinated for anything, was diagnosed with autism at the age of 2. the mother then got them all vaccinated
5- about the HPV vaccine. I was still within that teenage realm when it came out, and my doctor told me: I’m required to tell you about this vaccine, don’t worry, I don’t expect you to get it, I know that you don’t need it yet.
It is not so widespread for every girl to take it, and doctors who do their jobs properly and tell their patients what its for let the frum girls pass on it.
“The Haredim have invented a strawman in their minds. They perceive a conspiracy against them that doesn’t exist.”
what strawman? Dr. Tendler comparing MBP to female circumcision is REAL. He’s hellbent in destroying MY way of life.
rebdoniel, although you may not prescribe to the Dr’s hate fully, you definitely think we need “help”.
“Asking people to follow the law and act like normal, civilized, honorable citizens is not an attack against your way of life.”
true. just please define “act like normal ect.” according to whom?Are you embarrassed of my way of dress? Do we not “act normal” when we dress in a refined manner? cause, you see the “normal” members of society seem to dress differently.
Infecting babies through a ritual that is not halakhically necessary is a major problem. So is wanting to reap the benefits of a Zionist state while trashing Zionism and conspiring against its military. I can go on and on, but really don’t want to go down such a trajectory.
truthsharer -“I really hope chance is a troll. Otherwise, it’s just too shocking.”
He/She isn’t. I’ve been arguing with this person for many years now. The danger is Not that there are these people out there -it’s that they influence others. This is why the Rabbonim have to speak out because these people have a knack of twisting logic with their conspiracy theories.
Chance -“And of course, they are causing most of the leukemia children are suffering with.”
I honestly don’t know how posters here take this person seriously. Her conspiracy theories go so far to blame leukemia on the medical providers. This reminds me of the theory spreading around a certain community where they blamed the Jewish Doctors for giving “their” babies AIDS.
chance – You tell them! And all World Leaders are giant alien lizards in disguise. And JFK was assassinated by the alien that the CIA found in Roswell, but it was hushed up by the Bilderberg group who needed it kept secret as part of their Nazi-designed plan to force the Euro on the world (which they’re only really doing because the Knights Templar told them to). And cancer was invented by the Freemasons as an excuse to put flourine in the drinking water so as to make everyone stupid, paving the way for the Illuminati to form a New World Order backed by the Mossad, KGB and Stasi. And now the people are revolting by not vaccinating their children! Up the revolution! Freedom! Justice! And a hard-boiled egg! However, I regret that I have only one life to lay down for Whalebone Lane.
</sarcasm>
GAW – Thanks!
If you only knew, JMH… if you only knew…
GAW:
“The problem is that there is nothing to discuss.”
“They are “true believers”, who similar to missionaries, are not interested in hearing the truth.”
if that is what you think a priori, and if you assume that I have never asked medical counsel or that I have seen a quack, I am sorry that I can’t help your narrow-mindedness. By the way you do not even know so far which vaccinations we declined.
“P.S. If you don’t vaccinate your children, I’m interested to hear why not. (Also I’d like to make sure that no one in my family has any contact with you or your children).”
“Not really. I don’t think I asked for such personal information from a complete stranger.”
Which one of the two?
“As I said before, Tetanus+ (TDAP?) & Polio are the biggies. MMR is also important, as those diseases can hurt pregnant women. After that, if you don’t want to take flu or Chicken pox vaccine (and certainly HPV), I have no Tayainos.”
Those who receive Sabin Polio should be aware that live virus is present and thus avoid contact with immunodepressed people and people not (or not yet) vaccinated for a few days after each dose. I agree with you on the rest, except for your glaring omission of arguably the most important vaccine for travelers and for people in contact with travelers: yellow fever. Polio is by now very rare even in remote countryside areas in the third world: yellow fever, which is more serious than polio, is endemic even in urban areas and due to globalization can occasionally be encountered anywhere.
Now, if you tell me you don’t ever travel outside NYC or at most you go to NJ, and that you rarely have reason to contact travelers to Asia or Africa, that is a good reason for skipping yellow fever vaccine. As you see, good reasons for declining potentially life-savings vaccinations exist. You are proof of it.
I can not agree with the point you make with regards to herd immunity. A child or an elderly or even a young person who can not be vaccinated (due to serious diseases such as cancer, or being a transplant recipient) is a person whose health and even life are threatened even by a trivial cold, for which there is no vaccination available at present. Anyone who has any cold-like symptoms should temporarily stay away from that person.
I work for a pediatrician. The vaccine is only 80% effective, which means you can still catch the disease regardless. If everyone was immune, the disease would be weakened but unfortanately that is not the case. Most of the cases that occurred recently were in unvaccinated children under one who could not get the shot being that the first shot is at 12 months. So if you don’t want to vaccinate just be aware that you are putting other people in danger- either those who are too young to get the vaccine, or some people that their bodies have a low immunity even though they had the shot. There are also some people that due to medical conditions cannot receive live vaacines. There was also a miscarriage that occured from this outbreak. You are putting other people at risk.
Breaking news (article from healthfinder.gov):
Whooping cough cases are escalating in the United States, and many American adults are unknowingly exposing vulnerable babies to the potentially deadly disease because their vaccinations are not up to date, a new survey finds.
“[Whooping cough] is a very preventable disease, but many adults may think their childhood vaccinations still are protecting them against it,” said Dr. Matthew Davis, director of the new University of Michigan National Poll on Children’s Health. “Findings from this poll show that few adults have received a booster shot within the recommended 10-year time frame and, in fact, two-thirds told us they were not aware of their vaccination status.”
Just 20 percent of adults said they’d received the whooping cough (pertussis) vaccine less than 10 years ago, while 19 percent said they were vaccinated more than 10 years ago and 61 percent said they did not know when they were last vaccinated.
The poll also found that 72 percent of respondents strongly agreed or agreed that parents have the right to insist that visitors receive the whooping cough vaccine before visiting a newborn in the hospital. And 61 percent of survey participants strongly agreed or agreed that parents should make sure all adults receive the vaccine before visiting a newborn at home.
Whooping cough easily spreads within households, day care facilities, schools and neighborhoods. Most deaths from whooping cough occur in children younger than 3 months old, and most infants who get whooping cough are infected by an older child or adult with the illness.
“Teens and adults who have received the [whooping cough] vaccine are less likely to get whooping cough themselves, and therefore less likely to spread whooping cough to other people, including infants who have not yet been protected by the recommended [whooping cough] vaccinations,” Davis said.
The poll results are encouraging because they indicate some awareness that visitors need to be protected against this disease, Davis said in a university news release.
“Expectant parents should have a conversation about [whooping cough] vaccine with their family and close friends before the baby is born, to allow time for them to get their [whooping cough] vaccine up to date,” he said. “If parents begin to take this approach, it may have a very positive impact decreasing the number of newborns who become severely ill or die as a result of [whooping cough].”
Whooping cough recently reached its highest level in the United States in 50 years. The disease can be serious or fatal in unvaccinated newborns.
What people should do is stay at home when they feel unwell, as opposed to going to work and to social gatherings.
I respectfully ask the moderator why my, I believe, articulated comment has not been approved, while proposals of forced vaccinations as well as conspiracy-theoretical anti-vaccination tirades are published immediately.
Well, as we all know, if you carry some iron on you then the Elves (who basically cause all disease, or at least make you think you’re ill…) can’t get you. So why vaccinate?
“Chance -“And of course, they are causing most of the leukemia children are suffering with.”
I honestly don’t know how posters here take this person seriously. Her conspiracy theories go so far to blame leukemia on the medical providers. This reminds me of the theory spreading around a certain community where they blamed the Jewish Doctors for giving “their” babies AIDS.”
Why don’t you check the National cancer institute website, on formaldehyde and cancer. They clearly state that formaldehyde is causing several cancers including leukemia. Well , you child get formaldehyde injected into them every time they get a vaccine, do you wonder why so many children have cancer?
And about the HPV vaccine which is for cervical cancer. this is a STD that a girl cannot get. so why are “frum” doctors giving them to their patients? I know many 9 year olds that got the vaccine. Not only are jewish girls getting destroyed by this vaccine, but check the VAERS database and you will see how many girls and boys died from the vaccine, and how many thousands were injured. between 1-10% of adverse reactions are reported.
Don’t be blinded by the medical doctor, they don’t know any more than they were taught, I don’t blame them , they are as blind as you. Any doctor who has done their homework will see the problem with vaccines. Of course, some will say that they never saw an adverse reaction, because they will blame the parent or the child for their adverse reaction.
“Doctors turn out to be dishonest, corrupt, unethical, sick, poorly educated, and downright stupid more often than the rest of society. When I meet a doctor, I generally figure I’m meeting a person who is narrow-minded, prejudiced, and fairly incapable of reasoning and deliberation. Few of the doctors I meet prove my prediction wrong.” _Dr Robert Mendelsohn
Chance: I honestly believe your children should be taken away from you. Your irrational behavior is putting innocent people at risk. I know, you disagree. However, your agreement is irrelevant. Pedophiles also (generally) disagree with their treatment from society. Pedophiles are better than you. They have less control over their actions, and are less likely to directly cause people to die.
frumnotyeshivish: whoa! I’m very against those who dont vaccinate their children. I believe they are wrong and strongly believe in children being vaccinated. I wish i could personally send all those parents who dont vaccinate their children on a one way trip to the moon.
However, comparing them to a pedophile is crossing the line. Pedophiles can control themselves. They harm others emotionally and physically – sometimes leaving someone to feel suicidal. So please dont compare the two!
chance – Wait, so you believe the doctors who tell you that formaldehyde causes cancer but these same doctors tell you that vaccination works and is necessary and suddenly these doctors know nothing?!
Furthermore, people get exposed to formaldehyde from all kinds of sources (“Formaldehyde sources in the home include pressed-wood products, cigarette smoke, and fuel-burning appliances.” from your very own NCI paper that you obviously hadn’t read properly) but you simply pick a thing which has it in and say “this is it, this is what’s causing cancer”. The study you quote simply says that continued high levels of exposure to formaldehyde, such as those experienced by funeral workers, increases the risk (note: not causes) of developing cancer later in life. The one-off, minute amount of formaldehyde in one or two vaccines (by no means even the majority) will in no way do the same. Please, if you want us to take your claims even semi-seriously, learn how to read a scientific paper.
“Which is why people should get their titers, especially if they fear exposure, and get a booster if needed”
Actually no- you do not get a booster right after getting the shot. And if your immunity weakens over the year, yes you can get a booster, but then again it doesn’t stop you from getting the disease 100%. Which is why everyone should be vaccinated so there will be a less chance of it going around.
i am staying away from these threads because of disgusting comments like frumnotyeshivish who instead of answering ONE of any of chance’s claims and questions, retorts with ignorance by attacking chance in the most revolting manner (saying pedophiles are BETTER???!?) Disgusting and shame on you.
where are the Mods?
i am signing off.
p.s. is there ANYONE who can seriously answer and respond to each of chances 7 taynis found here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/vaccines-in-the-frum-community/page/2#post-471219
tzaddiq – Yes they can, and have, seriously answered, responded to and refuted all these points and more. chance simply does not want to listen to reason and has been posting wilder and wilder claims about the medical industry in general and some weird conspiracy stuff and then wonders why we think she(?) is being ridiculous.
tzaddiq the 7 aren’t taynis at all. All have been replied to but here goes for convenience sake:
1) This point is irrelevant since this discussion isnt really about what needs to be done for school but rather what is best for your children and society.
That being said according to the Law cited by Mameleh the exceptions are for medical concerns certified by physician. And “genuine and sincere religious beliefs ” held by the parents, none of these seem to apply to you or chance. Any religious views you think you have opposing vaccines have no connection to Judaism and should be corrected. (If you have some foreign religious views that is another story).
2) The vaccine isnt perfect. Nothing in life is.
3) It has been studied ad nauseum. Do a pub med search. I checked the inserts nobody has died during vaccine trials.
4) It isnt sad, people who dont vaccinate are callous about their children and others against ALL medical advice. It is frustrating when many children get sick from an entirely preventable illness.
5) It affects other children too and can cause a problem in pregnancies. Some disease such as Polio saying you dont care if your child gets the disease makes you either ignorant or callous about your own children. This is what leads to attitudes such as frumnotyeshivish’s and if you say you dont care if your kid gets polio, then I agree with him and your children should be taken away from you.
6) We beleive God gave us the abbiltiy to discover vaccines. Your “argument” is an argument against all of medicine (Clearly allowed by the Torah) and for that matter cooking or baking the wonderful raw food Hashem has provided, or pretty much doing anything.
7)”vaccines kill, maim, and destroys the immune system. ” Wrong vaccines strengthen the immune system. and that is not written on the vaccine insert. You say listen blindly, but we have studies on our side. You have Jenny Mcarthy.
Hope this helps
I’d like to apologize for my extreme rhetoric. It was late at night and I was shocked and revolted by the views espoused by some here, and I went too far.
Chance, because you believe you are acting in the best interest of your children you are not worse than a pedophile, and your children should not be taken away from you.
You are dead wrong though, and hurting your children and others.
Perhaps minors should be forcefully vaccinated.
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