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is using someone elses wifi (without their knowledge) g’neiva?
Do they lose anything from it
Yes,it does slowdown connectivity(runs slower).
Yes, their internet goes slower.
Assuming that the wifi connection is not password protected, I believe it is ???? that it isn’t ?????, even if it does cause them a loss (i.e. slower speed). Putting on a password is so simple and basic, and not doing so is tantamount to ????.
If it’s not gneiva, then why would people block theirs? If it is gneiva then it makes sense that people block them cuz they don’t want you taking their “money” (since you’re paying for it and they’re not) from them. My line of thought might be a lil convoluted here though
I agree with coffee addict. I did it and I was told the code from a Yid and the service was from a Goy. But gezel akum is still asur! The question is: is it really gezel?
oops i though he said wife. wifi is a good question.
The cable company loses a potential customer and their bandwidth is used up more than the average customer would use by themselves.
If by you using their wifi, it will result in their computer to work more slowly b/c the wifi is working double, then yes it seems that would be g’neiva.
Let me put it another way, can you use another person’s sefer without his knowledge or permission?
ravshalom:
That savora is terrible to say the least.There are people who do not know that there is an idea of putting in a password.Even if they did know their is no inyun of hefeker if it is in their possession,just because you could see connections of available WiFi doesn’t mean you could latch on.(one would be makpid if it made things slower for them)
2qwerty- There is no question regarding the provider, as they obviously provide the service with the knowledge that routers will be used to enable multiple computers to connect. The OP’s question was regarding the subscriber.
sam – I think that it is common knowledge, and many people just don’t care. Those that don’t know and do care are a ?????? ??????? and I wouldn’t be ????. Ask your LOR for a final ???.
It is very different lesschumros. And the Shulchan Aruch says you can’t use someone else’s sefer. This should be stealing from both the wifi customer and the internet provider if it’s done regularly.
some people davka leave their wifi with no password so people could use it.
First of all, you should ask a rav who knows both choshen mishpat and the relevant technologies.
Here’s my two cents as a systems guy and a programming student.
1- These days when the setup utilities usually prompt you to create a password, the network would probably have the din of a bench in front of someone’s house which, according to the gemara in Bava Kama, falls under the rubric of zeh neheneh v’zeh lo chaser. I.e., if you were to use it lightly enough that your usage wouldn’t impact the network, it’s not a problem. If you were to use it to seed torrents or play online games that would be the equivalent of popa bar abba sitting on the bench in the gemara. (Sorry popa, couldn’t resist. :))
2- WEP encryption should have a din of an unsecured network because it really is that easy.
3- Even if you got a heter, it’s still unethical.
4- Even if you got a heter and don’t have any objections ethically (mitzad yashrus) it’s not a very smart thing to do from a security standpoint.
ItcheSrulik: The part of your analysis I take strong exception to is the WEP point (3). if theres a password, including wep, it means the guy wants to keep you out. Additionally, even wep is not broken into without special tools. It’s only “easy” if someone a) is a techie and knows what he’s doing and b) went to get the tools to do it.
Itche: I agree with your analysis in regards to the buyer of the internet (except for the WEP part, but Obaminator beat me to it). You failed to address anything in regards to the internet provider though.
ravshalom- Is not locking your front door also tantamount to hefker?!
less chumros & Sam2- The Shulchan Aruch is refering to sefarim from his time which were handwritten and easily ruined. Many Poskim today say its allowed because the sefer will not be runied and we have a rule that Nicha Lei L’Inish L’Aveid Mitzva B’mimona a person would like that a mitzva is done with his possesions. (Sorry for the poor phonetic spelling)
Its illegal (Although its hard to enforce)
And the Cable/DSL Companies dont allow it.
So its a case of Dinah D-Malchusa Dina
There is no issue with the internet provider (phone or cable company.) The internet provider providers the customer all you can eat service. The concern would be between you and the customer paying for the service.
Some people purposefully leave their internet service with no password since they want to let others use their signal and service.
Not true, do a google search stealing wifi and see the different articles that come up
Obaminator: The software tools are freely available, as are tutorials in simple English, so any non-techie can crack it. Still, I’ll concede the point that even a weak encryption means he wants you out. It would be like a fenced in yard in Brooklyn. Even if you can climb over, you shouldn’t.
Sam2: Knew I forgot something! M’tzad the ISP, it’s the same test as I applied to the neighbor. If you use it occasionally, and if you didn’t have the neighbor’s connection you’d go to an internet cafe or a library then it’s zeh nehneh v’zeh lo chaser. If you use it regularly, it still isn’t gneva outright since the bandwidth costs them nothing. It’s a case of m’nias harevach which is not quite stealing but is IIRC patur b’dinei adam v’chayav b’dinei shamayim. What do you think?
Does the fact that you (usually) don’t know whose signal it is, and if it is a majority nochri area it is probably not a yehudis, factor into whether it is assur?
No.
Why not?
Because you can’t steal from nochrim either.
Gezeilas nochri assur
G’neivas Akkum is still Assur.
there is a rov in eretz yisroel who paskens its muter only if you are ‘just passing through’. using it bkvius he holds will be ossur. i know someone who put a password on his wifi. one evening a few days later he gets a knock on his door – its his (frum) neighbor asking him politely to remove it!
If Usage-Based Charging will go into affect then its for sure stealing.
The risk in leaving your WiFi open intentionally doesn’t lie in you getting slow speeds, but in crime. Imagine someone uses your internet connection to commit serious acts of crimee. It’s one of the few ways a person with evil intentions can access the internet absolutely anonymously since he has absolutely no link to the account holder.
Anyway, for me, I think it would depend on the network name also. If it’s a default network name then you can assume it’s not ok. If the name obvious like “Reuven’s Free WiFi” then you can assume it is ok. If the name is “Shlomi’s Lunchroom” and the door to Shlomi’s Lunchroom says “Shlomi’s – Free WiFi for customers”, again, obvious.
Generally I don’t get into this issue though since I use 3G and my data needs outside of the house are limited, so I never need WiFi anywhere.
If this is about one living somewhere and using it from a neighbor on a permanent basis, then one should simply go to that neighbor and discuss it. Most likely, if he isn’t a heavy user, he’d happily share it with you and share the cost – or maybe he doesn’t mind paying it all. Depends on the type of person etc of course, but I myself really wouldn’t mind if it’s just for limited usage. Several neighbors regularly used my WiFi in Yerushalayim with my approval (and my WPA2 key).
Did you know.
That the modem/router uses more power when in use as opposed to standby
More power = more electricity = ask your lor but to me that sounds like COMPLETE AND UTTER THIEVERY
Also wep 1,2, and 3 encryption is utterly useless. My personal security is a 36 digit random password and I use the hot touch button
PS leaving your wifi open is probably being michshal your neighbors kid’s…..
putting a code on is so simple, if you dont it should be aveida midas.
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