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Having had some discussions with my sons about this topic,there are surprising conclusions on this. Generally accepted is that you cannot use water from a hot water tank on shabbos. Yet, there may be reasons to be “mattir” this. What is the minhag of the “coffee room” participants?
“Yet, there may be reasons to be “mattir” this. “
Reasons? What reasons that be, and which posek said such reasons exist?
It would be muttar al y’dei aku”m, though.
Can you please post a link?
I’ll bli neder look a little later (I found it: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40815&st=&pgnum=316&hilite=), but R’Moshe doesn’t see a tzad heter.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&st=&pgnum=43&hilite=
So here’s a question… Is there such a thing as a tank that ONLY allows the cold water to come in if the hot water level dips to a specific low? So if someone were to use less than that maximum amount, it would NOT cause cold water to enter the tank and be cooked on Shabbos?
oomis: in such a case it would be okay if the water boiler never went to 110 at all during shabbos not just when the water is going in. i heard of someone who rigged his system exactly as you describe.
DY, Berlin, etc: grommo is ussur mdirabunun. many great talmidei chachumim matired electricity use on shabbos and yuntiff. the olam didnt agree (and the tzad hetr was based on faulty science in any event).
ROB: One has to ascertain that the Rov issuing the Psak to be lenient was/is FULLY knowledgeable with the ENTIRE mechanism of the device / apparatus / appliance. I don’t C”V want to belittle any Rov’s kavod, but it was known to occur in the past. Unknowledgeable technicians “experts” presented and explained different machines to Rabbonim, Gedolim in the wrong way. Totally. (I used to be very scientifically inclined, when I read certain seforim “A certain expert explained it to me…”, I had a hearty laugh)
There is a world of a difference between a frig, air conditioner and the likes where one may be gorem an earlier on or off (according to most / some). Even the water system pumps that will definitely be working due to one’s use, is also permitted. Too much lumdus – not for me.
But saying a hot water heater is a gorem is pulling it a bit too far. – The only way hot water is shooting out at the faucet, is because cold water is entering and pushing it out. Not a gorem at all (issur occurs at and by the motion of the faucet). Not even a she’aino miskaven – you do want it! If you turn off the cold water, your not going to get anything.
The only mechanism that should exist today, should be an air-pressured force going into the cold line feed, with the cold turned completely off before Shabbos.
I don’t know why nobody thought of it. (if people come out with such a device, KNOW – they got it from Little Froggie, on the Yeshiva World!!)
I have heard of people leaving a faucet running with a tiny trickle of hot water to allow normal usage on Shabbos, but I don’t like that loophole, you are still causing more cold water to heat up as soon as you turn on your faucets.
Whoever is modding this thread has a tankless job.
Of course someone omitted to mention that in the first paragraph R D. Kronglass specifically says that he is not writing this ????? rather just ????? ??????.
Gramma is actualy not Muttar on Shabbos. Perhaps you mean a Gramma She’ein Mis’chaven.
I don’t think he feels the ????? ?????? is just for fun of it. That is just a silly comment.
And from what I read on my phone, he says that it would be ossur. Perhaps it would be mutar to use the water if the spout was turned on. Bit not that it was mutar to open the spout ???????.
ROB, I spoke to a competent Halachahist (Rabbi), he told me you’re absolutely correct. While that’s not the general p’sak, he understood and took into account its design and mechanism, how it works, and deemed it to be a geramah.
(I knew I shouldn’t hop in where I don’t belong)
I will not attempt a halachic opinion. But I will mention that we sometimes turn off the “breaker” on our electic panel – the one that is for the hot water heater only.
The water is then warmish, depending on the season winter or summer and can be used for washing hands or dishes more pleasantly than the icy water from the cold water faucet in the winter.
Some might say the warm is very hot Friday night and might be a cooking question as well, when water enters the tank. If many take showers close to Shabbos, this will make the water only lukewarm when Shabbos starts.
The cold water getting cooked indirectly is also “Lo neecha lo”
In addition to turning off the themostat, shut off the cold water intake of the water boiler tank to resolve the bishul issue.
Rav Ruderman zt’l, the Rosh yeshiva of Ner Yisroel did not generally paskin but would refer shailos to Reb Dovid Kronglass zt’l.
truthsharer1 – “I have heard of people leaving a faucet running with a tiny trickle of hot water to allow normal usage on Shabbos, but I don’t like that loophole, you are still causing more cold water to heat up as soon as you turn on your faucets.”
Rav Nachman Bulman zt’l had the hot water going over Shabbos as per your post.
although you did make clear you were not writing saying it is lehalacha and you said ypu know most poskim don’t hold like this i would like to mention R’ Ribbiat (i think it is him i dont want to misquote him) that even if the pilot is off it is still assur since the water in the tank is still yad soledes and you are making cold water come in
even if it is grama it is a a psil reisha which at least by ashkenazim is assur unless done through a derabanon so maybe you could do it with a shinui…
rabbiorberlin – if not a lot of showers were taken, we used to be machmir not to use the hot water Friday night especially in the summer as it seemed quite hot.
when i read this part of a tshuve i thought of this thread and this forum in general.
,??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ,????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??????, ???? ???? ??? ????? ,?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ,?????? (-????”? ??? ?”? ?????) ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? .?????? -?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ,????? ?????? ???’ ,????? ,?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????[ ,???? ??? ???? ???? ????”? ??????????? ???????? ,????? ????? ??’ ??? ??? ,??????”? ??’ ??? ,???’ ????? ??? (?? ?”? ???-???) ,?”?] ,?? ???-??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ??”? ??? ???? ,????? ?????? ,??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ,?”???? ?????” ,??”?????? ???”? ?? ?? ????” ,?????? ,??? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ??”? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ,????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? -????? ?? ??”?[ .???? ?? ?? ????? (?”? ?????) -?????? ???????? (??”? ?????) ??? ???? -???? ??? ???? ,????? ,?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ,???? ??? (??”?) ?”???????” ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????]. ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ???
rabbiofberlin
Rav Dovid Kronglass wasn’t the typical Mashgiach at least not like the mashgiach that you think of today. Google about him. He was one of the gedolei hador.
Whoever is modding this thread has a tankless job. “
🙂
As with Reb Moshe, Rabbi Kronglass soared beyond the title of Rav and in his lifetime was addressed and was known as Rebbe to his talmidim and simply as Reb Dovid to others.
ROB: Not sure I agree with you that it isn’t miskaven. After all, he wants to have hot water later too.
When we had a new hot water boiler installed, we had a cut-off valve put in the pipe that feed cold water into the tank. Before Shabbos, we turn off the valve, cutting off the cold water feed. We then use the hot water remaining in the tank until it runs out (usually by Shabbos afternoon – fyi we do not take showers on Shabbos)
It sure makes washing ourselves and the serving platters more pleasant !!
How do you get the hot water out? Are you absolutely certain cold water isn’t entering, forcing out the hot? It doesn’t make sense to me, unless the heater is above your apartment – and you allow air in somehow. You should really check it out.
Maybe it has a piston.
Wanting the water to be hot later makes it Nicha but not necessarily Miskaven. However, often one causes the other, as per Tosafos 41b.
In Yalkut Yosef there is a long discussion of using the hot water from the typical Israeli setup, a roof top tank with a solar collector. He covers all the halachic bases, and is mattir.
Re; Little Froggie
I honestly do not know how it works. FYI the hot water heater is in the basement of our house.
I just remember that we asked our Rov, and he told us which boiler to buy (I don’t remember his specific reasoning) or how the boiler circulates the hot water. I seem to remember that it works with pressure (from the sinks). I do know that the boiler does not turn on all Shabbos, without the incoming cold water, it does not turn on at all.
In E.Y. they have solar water boilers that can be used on shabbat if set up properly see Shmirat Shabbat Ke Hilcoto -Noibert
to my friend from Long Island:
I think you should find out how exactly you’re getting hot water out of the tank, if it’s not being forced out by any water entering. Of course it works with pressure. Everything works with pressure (I wouldn’t get up in the morning without pressure. I’d be forever hocking away here if not for pressure) There is no “pressure from the sinks” pulling out hot water. Something is pushing it out of the boiler in the basement, all the way up to your sink.
ROB:
Okay, I admit, I never went through high school (gasp), I even started late (double gasp), was home schooled for first grade (wrote about that somewhere else – for those stalking me out here). So I never learned physics, advanced reading, writing, computer skills etc. Some things however I picked up myself, hands-on. (I am writing – and it’s on a computer.)
Now, kindly explain to me and our audience how water in a tank in the basement is “automatically” going to travel upwards to the sinks, without any pressure. (I may be extremely unlearned, ignorant in areas of Torah, Talmud, Halachah and Hashkafah, in regard to earthly matters I pretty much have a hang of matters)
ROB,
In the US almost always the hot water heater is on the lowest level of the house, thus there would be no way for the water to go anywhere if the inlet was closed.
Perhaps you can do the same that you say you did with strawberries and try it.
Turn off the intake valve for your hot water heater and then see if you get water from your hot water tap.
ROB,
You are actually disproving yourself. Since water seeks equilibrium, how can it flow upwards to a level higher than the water tank? Remember the inlet is shut, equilibrium begins at most at that level. (assuming it does not have fight a vacuum that is created in the tank)
ROB,
So now you are changing your reason? Do you have an expansion tank? I don’t. Most houses do not. That is only if there is a pressure regulator preventing normal expansion. It is a seperate tank. And that would only allow for a very small amount if water to flow.
ROB, but on its way to the sink it would change its mind and remember that really it wants to go back to the tank. It would probably figure all this out before starting out and stay right where it is.
Nisht, HaLeiVi: That’s exactly what I was getting at. Which was why I wanted my friend from Long Island to ascertain he has a system which is permitted.
I couldnt find the rabbi ribiat so it probably wasnt him
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