US Supreme Court recent rulings

“So when s/o starts becoming like this at 40 -where were they all these years? Late bloomers – huh?”

There is no such thing as “becoming like this” at age 40. Most gay people will tell you that they always “knew” they were gay from the age of five, or twelve, or fifteen or whatever, but that they tried to suppress it. And let’s face it, who wouldn’t try to suppress it? Who would want to have a homosexual attraction? Those who “come out of the closet” at age 40 have been hiding in it for decades.

jewishfeminist02 – There is very little evidence for any kind of biological basis for same-sex attraction. Foster and non-foster twin studies have shown virtually no difference in probability (as compared to general population) of homosexuality in one twin if the other is gay, ruling out genetic and epigenetic causes. The problem for gay rights activists is that, when searching for a biological basis, the only ‘acceptable’ options are genetic or epigenetic as neurological or developmental origins would then catagorise homosexuality as either a condition or a disorder (note that these do not necessarily imply disease or illness, just deviation from ‘standard set-up’) whereas the activists need to portray homosexuality as simply another variant of the standard human set-up. Simply speaking, a neurological condition would mean that the brain functions differently to the basic programmed settings for all humanity. If we admit such, it means also admitting that heterosexuality is the default mode of human orientation and that homosexuality is, in some way, an aberration. This is something no self-respecting activist is willing to do. The same holds true with a developmental origin, as that would imply that somehow the cognitive functions of gay people developed along different lines to straight people, again requiring the ‘default mode’ being heterosexuality.

Apart from the lack of evidence, there is also the logical problem with a genetic (or epigenetic) basis for homosexuality. If, as pretty much every gay rights activist does, you believe in Darwinian (or even neo-Darwinian) evolution then how does a ‘gay gene’ propagate? In a world in which mating is purely based on attraction and there are no ‘social taboos’ on engaging in homosexual acts (as would be the case with early man) then the gene cannot be passed on as such acts cannot produce conception. No-one can be born from the mating of two males or two females, and those who would have had same-sex desires would have had no need to involve themselves in sham marriages (as many over the course of history did in fact do) as there was no pressure for them to act as if they were straight so no homosexual male would have mated with a heterosexual female (or visa-versa) to propagate said gene.

At the end of the day it is a ta’aivah. Yes, it may be a very strong one but you cannot excuse people simply on the basis of having a very strong ta’aivah. There are prisons full of murderers, rapists, pedophiles, con artists, muggers, bank robbers and burglars to prove that.

I read an opinion from a YCT-trained rabbi which argued that sexually-active homosexuals should be considered innocent, since their actions ought to be patur under “ones rachmama patrei.”

If an allowance is made for this, and on the basis of neurological proclivity, than why not excuse pedophiles, murderers, drug addicts, etc. whose pathology is correlationally-linked with neurological anomalies? Where do we draw the line with people claiming that biology excuses a lack or absence of moral judgment? Rationality and morality are what separate us from beasts.

Sam2, my husband has a close friend who is very frum and has an attraction to both genders that is making him miserable. He wants his homosexual attraction to just go away, but so far he has been unsuccessful. He is in his late twenties and refuses shidduchim, because he doesn’t think it is fair to any woman for him to marry her and still have these thoughts about men. It has driven him into a deep depression such that it is even difficult for him to hold down a job. He hates himself. I so wish there was something we could do for him.

I agree. I also think that the option of gays marrying lesbians should be more seriously considered. There have been a number of these marriages already. They will never have sexual fulfillment, but at least it gives them companionship and an opportunity to start their own families.

“A bisexual or homosexual cannot change. Reparative therapy doesn’t work.”

I don’t know if reparative therapy works or not. I suspect that it may depend on how you define work. Does “work” mean an increased ability to suppress ones urges? Does “work” mean developing an attraction (even if minor) to the opposite gender? Or does “work” mean only a full blown change in orientation?

I also think that there is misapprehension as to the general success of psychotherapy. Almost no psychotherapy “works” in more than a 1/3 of cases and they define “work” very loosely. I wonder if reparative therapy does damage because there are false expectations.

However, I have a very hard time believing that it is literally impossible for them to change. There are very few things that one simply cannot change about themselves. It may just be so difficult that 99% who try will fail. One can then have an argument about whether it is worth it to try if failure is such an overwhelming likelihood.

However, I have a very hard time believing that it is literally impossible for them to change. There are very few things that one simply cannot change about themselves.

Do you think that with therapy you could become gay?

Have you ever heard of cognitive behavioral therapy? It has a success rate that rivals that of medication. If you google “Comparative Effectiveness of Medication Versus Cognitive-Behavioral

Women With Depression”, you will find an excellent study showing the success of CBT.

CBT is garbage, and those studies are junk science.

Indeed, it works just as much as medication. lol

Popa,

Could you provide evidence that CBT is “garbage” and that the studies are “junk science”?

Matan1,

The issue is overall effectiveness, not in comparison to medication. The following is a quote from the book The Undiscovered Mind:

“One ‘striking’ finding, Elkin said, was the ‘relatively small percentage of patients who remain in treatment, fully recover, and remain completely well throughout the 18-month followup period.’ Only 24 percent of the patients recovered from their depression by the end of the 16-week treatment period and remained free of major symptoms for the next 18 months. The percentage of paitents on each regime who stayed well were as follows: cognitive-behavioral therapy, 30 percent; interpersonal therapy, 26 percent; placebo plus clinical management, 20 percent; imipramine, 19 percent.”

Thus, although CBT appears to be the best treatment for depression out there, it still only produces long-term results in 30% of cases (and I wonder what the effectiveness rate would be if we stretched that out to 3 years instead of 18-months).

I don’t think any legitimate therapist would claim to be able to cure someone in a limited number of sessions. What they might say is that you may see results in given number and of sessions.

but that’s what they claim.

It’s ridiculous to say that Noone can suffer from just depression or just anxiety. Take a look at the DSM. The criteria for depression is wildly different.

No, it’s ridiculous to say that you’ve ever met someone who has one but not the other.

Popa, what you said just does not make sense to me at all. Yes, while most of us women don’t want to admit it, I’m sure most married frum men have desires here and there about other women besides their wives. To compare THAT to a gay individual who never gets to satisfy his urges and has to spend his life with a person whom he has zero sexual attraction towards is another thing altogether. A married man is or should be attracted to his wife. He probably is satisfied in thSt way. The occasional desire for another woman is natural but if he’s a good person and husband, it stops there. But he still gets to be satisfied. To say that a gay man is no “worse” off, shows how little you understand the situation. That’s almost like saying a vegetarian and a carnivore who is forbidden from eating meat are in the same boat.

To those who say that gay people don’t choose to be gay, why does the Torah say that mishkav zachar is an abomination and those who are guilty deserve the death penalty? Hashem doesn’t punish anyone who is born with a cleft palate, so how do you even make such a silly comparison? Nobody is born gay, just like nobody is born a murderer. There is no gay gene, it’s all in the mind, that’s where all ta’avos start.

moi aussi,

The Torah forbids the action not the attraction. Everybody has different yetzer horahs. Although it is possible to develop a yetzer for something, for the most part people don’t have control of the tayvas they are subject to from the outset. The Torah forbids you from acting on those tayvas against halacha.

Thank Hashem that you don’t have this yetzer, that you don’t have this nisayon.

Health,

I think jewishfeminist is talking about choosing to have the yetzer, not choosing to act on the yetzer.

“To those who say that gay people don’t choose to be gay, why does the Torah say that mishkav zachar is an abomination and those who are guilty deserve the death penalty?”

It’s very simple.

Some people are born gay. It is not a choice. But BEING gay is also not an aveirah. It is only ACTING on it that brings the death penalty. Many people have pointed out that some are born with a natural inclination to rape and murder, but we don’t excuse their behavior because “they were born that way”. This is very true. We don’t excuse the behavior of rapists and murderers. But a person who is born with the inclination to rape and never commits a rape has done nothing wrong. In fact, he is a true tzaddik.

We all have the yetzer hara for something or other. Some men have a yetzer hara that gives them the desire to partner with other men. They didn’t ask for that desire. All we can require of them is that they not listen to it. But claiming that they don’t have that yetzer hara in the first place, or that they acquired it later in life because of environmental conditioning, or liberal media, or what have you, makes a mockery of their struggles.

jewishfeminist

If you say that people are born gay/rapist/murderer, you’re saying that it’s in the genes, however until this day, no such genes were discovered.

Have you seen the movie “Trading Places”? The message therein was that people become what society makes of them. Environment and upbringing create rapists and murderers. Homosexuality is a lust which starts in the head, it’s created with our thinking. If we let go of our thinking, we can change our orientation. Being gay is just a thought.

Is your first hand knowledge anything more than anecdotal evidence?

“If you say that people are born gay/rapist/murderer, you’re saying that it’s in the genes, however until this day, no such genes were discovered.”

No, I’m not saying it’s genetic at all. It’s personality. People are born with personality traits. There is no such thing as a “rapist gene” or a “gay gene”, but babies come into this world with natural predispositions for homosexuality or rape in the same way they might have a math aptitude or a liking for chocolate ice cream (despite environment and/or upbringing that would NOT cause these things, e.g. a child of English teachers going into mathematics).

What difference does it make if the predisposition comes from birth or comes at a later date due to environmental influences? The point is that people who are gay are not making a conscious choice to be attracted to other men. They have a tayva, regardless of its source, and their challenge is to avoid acting on that tayva.