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@clay kodesh – “Again, i dont know if filters are an effective solution for IT people.”
Well, if you ask some of the posters here, IT people (like me) are now halachically obligated to either quit their job or become Conservatives.
Naysberg, yes, there are many great things being taught to our children. But there are also plenty of things that we unfortunately are scared or uncomfortable teaching our children. And they are things that DO need to be taught. People may argue “No, it’s better to keep them innocent and unknowing”, and to that I respond, maybe in your communities that works (though I’d be surprised as to how effective it really is), but in my community, and I’d say most communities, the children need to know, and know from the PROPER sources, such as parents and teachers. Because if they don’t, they’ll learn about these things from the WRONG sources, and that’s where all the trouble starts.
DY, I agree with a lot that you are saying, and I think you agree with a lot that I’m saying. The things we DO disagree on are things that many different types of Jews disagree on, and people in general, and that is fine. There is no one method that works for all people. One thing that you said is bothering me though, which is this:
“That’s exactly why it’s much better not to have web access, and if access is necessary, a filter is absolutely essential.”
Why did you choose to say “A filter is absolutely essential”, and not “Proper education of how to use it responsibly is absolutely essential”? Or at least both? Do you think a filter is MORE important than proper education?
Also, I noticed you wrote in the new “Facebook woes” thread, that because of the asifa, you are helping some friends get filters. That is wonderful. But are there people who are now trying to get properly educated in how to use the internet responsibly? I would hope so. I would hope there are at least as many people doing that as there are who are now getting filters.
TCG,
My post as well as Naysberg’s were meant rhetorically, yet you keep on bringing them up rather than directly address the issue.
His post was actually better than mine. Although I’m quite skeptical about the absolute impossibility of any type of filter or accountability/monitoring program, it’s possible that I’m wrong. It’s also possible that if it really is impossible, it’s muttar for you to have it (although it doesn’t seem that way based on the psakim I’ve seen and heard).
You attitude, though, that your need for it overrides normative halachic procedures, and you’ll seek a new rabbi or peer group if you need to, is horrible.
Well!
All I can say is “wow.” Things have certainly been moving along since I last checked in.
DaasYochid and Middle Path definitely win the award for most respectful and polite disagreement on this forum. I, like MiddlePath, was a bit confused by the vehemence and general closeminded “nopenopenope” attitude that my statement seemed to generate in some people. T
Well!
All I can say is “wow.” Things have certainly been moving along since I last checked in.
DaasYochid and Middle Path definitely win the award for most respectful and polite disagreement on this forum. I, like MiddlePath, was a bit confused by the vehemence and general closeminded “nopenopenope” attitude that my statement seemed to generate in some people. To those people–whom I do not seek to make famous by mentioning their names–I will only say this: please try learning how to argue your points so that your arguments graduate from schoolyard posturing to actual content. Then we will talk.
Next, a few points:
1. The whole concept of “use a filter” is an artificial moral construct, despite what anyone says. It’s not the same thing as “keep kosher” or “keep Shabbas,” in that the action of installing a filter does not automatically make you kosher v’yosher in the eyes of God.
Someone decided that filters are the be-all and end-all of internet safety. Wake up, people: no they’re not. Any fifteen year old that knows about by-proxy locators or how to torrent and seed would laugh you out of the room. Filters present as much barrier against going where you want to go on the internet as a “Do Not Cross Between Railway Cars” sign presents to subway riders.
2. “But DBM,” I hear some of you bleating, “are you saying that we mere mortals can trust ourselves not to seek out the forbidden? Don’t Chazal say that we cannot police ourselves in matters of arayos?”
Well, if it’s nose-to-nose with you, yeah. Few, if any, human beings can resist THAT sort of temptation. Notice, however, that Chazal did NOT say that we cannot police ourselves in, say, talking to a woman, walking on the same side of the street or even (gasp!) seating oneself next to a woman on a bus. Do you why? Because WE HAVE THE HUMAN CAPACITY TO SET LIMITS AND BIDE BY THEM.
If you read my original post, you will notice that I mention simply not going online or going online in the presence of my wife as deterrents to visiting improper content. Those are natural–not artificial and pandering–means of self-control.
(To the one sick soul who derived from that post that I was confessing to not being able to help visiting certain sites: shame on you. Are you not aware of the many interstitial advertisments and banners that one encounters in the media?)
3. To tout a filter as the device that does what we ourselves are meant to be doing is to create an artificial moral construct. Why?
Imagine for a moment if it suddenly became fashionable to drink only boiling water in order to avoid the infinitesimal concern that a living organism remains in it. Imagine the signs popping up in restaurant windows throughout the Jewish world. WE ONLY SERVE BOILING WATER. GET IT WHILE IT’S SCALDING.
Basically, we are buying into the idea that a good Jew drinks his water at the boiling point. We HAVE to, you see, because otherwise we will fall prey to our ta’avos to drink unboiled water. We are all intrinsically animals who cannot control ourselves when faced with clear, sparkling goy-water that isn’t even properly steaming. It follows, of course, that only an awful, morally corrupt Jew who has drunk cold water so often that he’s become desensitized would dare regard plain, common-sense filtering as sufficient.
To recap: Someone creates a pious thing to do. Everyone buys into the piety because nobody wants to be That Guy Who Shouldn’t Even Be Jewish. Anyone who questions the new piety by examining it using actual brainpower is a heretic.
Why did you choose to say “A filter is absolutely essential”, and not “Proper education of how to use it responsibly is absolutely essential”?
Because that’s already assumed – not specifically a course in filter or computer or internet use, but a proper Torah chinuch which informs us how to navigate all nisyonos in life, not just the web.
But are there people who are now trying to get properly educated in how to use the internet responsibly? I would hope so. I would hope there are at least as many people doing that as there are who are now getting filters.
By far the most important step to use the internet properly is to get a proper filter.
David,
I will quote from your earlier post.
And, as a human, I make my own conscious decisions about morality and I bide by them. Not ALWAYS–as I AM human, after all–but most of the time.
A reference to not always biding by conscious decisions about morality is very different than what you now claim is only incidental exposure to inappropriate material. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Nevertheless, incidental exposure is certainly reason enough to require a filter.
The fact that filters are easily evaded is all the more reason to advocate complete avoidance of internet access, not a reason to forego the filter. At the least, it demands stronger, more difficult to evade, filters.
Chaza”l do say, actually, that one must take extreme precautions in areas of arayos. I don’t fathom how you can compare being on the same side of the street as a woman with having free and easy access to all sorts of arayos on the web. Artificial moral construct though it may be, blocking easy access to the type of tempting material available on the web is an imperative, and I don’t see how one can possibly distinguish this from the Gemara’s imperative to avoid unnecessarily passing an area in which women are doing laundry. Is that not also an “artificial moral construct”?
No, questioning the direction given to us by our gedolim is not heresy. It’s just lacking common sense. (If you’re arguing on Chaza”l, that’s another story, but I’m hopeful that you don’t realize that that’s what your doing).
MiddlePath,
Just to demonstrate that nobody is suggesting filters as a total solution, I will paste a sentence from a piece released by the Ichud about a follow up gathering of rabbonim, addressed by R’ Mattisyahu Shlit”a:
I have had very bad experiences with filters. One blocks sites with names like “Middlesex County”. Another one apparently blocks all book purchasing sites as I was unable to get into a Judaica site.
However, I agree that if someone has a problem in this area he should get a filter. However, for one who does not it is a pain in the neck (see Nedarim 9b).
Avi K,
That’s a strange argument. Almost nothing in life has no down side. Should I stop learning Gemara because I once twisted my ankle while trying to reach a sefer on a high shelf? Everything has it’s balance, and your issues were extremely trivial. And your analogy to installing a filter, which is a basic safeguard against the yetzer horah, to becoming a nazir, is beyond comprehension.
You still have some people today actually defend having a TV at home or watching movies. So, unfortunately, it isn’t entirely surprising to still see someone defend unfiltered internet. (Despite that unfiltered internet is much much worse than TV or movies.)
I posted on a seperate thread a link to a extensive booklet that provides detailed guidance solutions and empowerment for dealing with this issue.
most of the debate here will be null and void after reading the booklet as it has information for everyone.
I don’t think to many people will read the content and say they knew all that already, nor will they say it didnd’t help them.
@DBM your statement
2. “But DBM,” I hear some of you bleating, “are you saying that we mere mortals can trust ourselves not to seek out the forbidden? Don’t Chazal say that we cannot police ourselves in matters of arayos?”
Well, if it’s nose-to-nose with you, yeah. Few, if any, human beings can resist THAT sort of temptation. Notice, however, that Chazal did NOT say that we cannot police ourselves in, say, talking to a woman, walking on the same side of the street or even (gasp!) seating oneself next to a woman on a bus. Do you why? Because WE HAVE THE HUMAN CAPACITY TO SET LIMITS AND BIDE BY THEM.
If you read my original post, you will notice that I mention simply not going online or going online in the presence of my wife as deterrents to visiting improper content. Those are natural–not artificial and pandering–means of self-control.”
End quote
You dont seriously mean to compare having unlimited access to unfiltered internet to walking by women on the street! A better comparison, perhaps, would be to yichud. (Because in both cases you have access without any outside interference or fear of discovery)
yes, we all agree that the internet is a new thing that has no precedent in halacha as “assur”, so there is no easy mishna brura or shulchan aruch to quote.
But i think, with a little intellectual honesty( and some bleating:) we can clearly see how being exposed to the web is within the categories that our chachomim forbade in “stayin away from arayos”, similar to how they forbade looking at pictures or clothing. And how they forbade being alone with a woman, i.e. yichud.
However its not written specifically, so theres nothing to quote.
I didn’t want to start talking like this, but come on. If you’re a man, can u really take seriously someone who says “im pure, im in control, i set boundaries” etc. We’ve been around the block before, we’re all internet users( if not, how are u reading this) we know what goes on when men have unfettered access to inappropriate material! Were not stupid!!
theres a stat by the American Psycological Assosiation that 86% of men would open an inappropriate website,if given the chance. Thats almost 9 out of 10 men. Tell me, are you that 1 or 2 in 10 who wont? Is everyone in this thread the 1 or 2 who wont? Where are the other 9? Who are they? Can we please take our heads out of the sand? We’re not malachim, we’re human!! Deal with it!
Im sure that many times you are in control. But even if you are the 1, as a public standard set by our leaders,theyd have to be literally INSANE to allow everyone in klal yisroel to have unlimited internet, just to protect the rights of the 1 or 2 in ten who will stay pure.
This should all be obvious.
Everyone recognizes that the ban on television in the Torah community has been, and is, succesful. Sure, you have the odd-man out that still has a TV in his home r’l. But he is the odd-man out. He sticks out. He is a small minority (in the Chareidi community.) Yeshivos filter these families out. And have been doing so for many decades already. Everyone knows TV is very bad.
You also know it wasn’t always like this. In the 50’s, 60’s and even part of the 70’s it wasn’t uncommon at all to have a TV in a Chareidi home. It didn’t change over night. People thought TV ain’t so bad. The rabbis are overreacting. Yet b’H they persisted. Rabbonim fought television tooth-and-nail. They had rabbinical conferences. There was the famous Kol Koreh signed by rabbonim across the spectrum banning (yes, banning) televisions. Yeshivas cracked down on families with TV’s. Today, b’H, we can say it was a very successful initiative.
That is where unfiltered internet in frum homes is headed. IY”H it will be almost eradicated. Its defenders will have the same standing in the community as anyone who dared try to give a speech in a Chareidi shul defending having a TV in a Jewish home.
It is unthinkable.
avhaben:
Totally Agree
http://www.madisontitle.com/tempdoc/KinusBrochure.zip
The brochure includes:
Challenges of our times, chochmo bagoyim tamin, solutions etc.
I think the content of this extensive booklet will be VERY agreeable to (almost) all.
This is far different then what was actually said at the asifa and it will become the standard iy”h, as you have said.
MP: We ARE providing a (proper) education in Klal Yisroel. Our wonderful mechanchm working hard together with parents are providing a wonderful education, based on the Torah hashkofos espoused by the gedolim shlit”a, to our tinokos sheel beis raban.
AND IT IS WORKING!!
Yet, we still need additional tools to complement that. One of those tools are filters.
BS”D
WADR, I don’t think that is the case, especially in these inyonim.
The Gedolim educated their children about growing up (Hamavin Yovin). I remember a story of a Gadol (Don’t remember who) teaching their child at 13 about the various changes that are going on in his body, how his Yetzer Hara newly affects him more, and the best ways to deal with it. Most importantly, about the fight and how to win the war even if a battle is lost, and don’t expect to always win every battle.
The parents of our children are avoiding these hard issues, either due to their own squeamishness, them thinking that discussing it is Assur, their own ignorance, or some other reason. The bochrim are therefore not prepared for life (the “how to fight” aspect). This can be done in a Toirahdik Oifen, if we had hadracha on how it should be done.
Personally, I believe a filter is useless, unless it is a whitelist, ISP based, like YeshivaNet, plus a Wi-Fi/3G blocker. A monitoring service is better, but will not help if a child wants to see. Your child can go to the corner store & buy a prepaid cell phone and download anything they want, and you will never know, no matter what solution you buy.
avhaben -“That is where unfiltered internet in frum homes is headed. IY”H it will be almost eradicated.”
That’s your mistake and a lot others here. They didn’t Matter Filtered Net in the home. Filtered Net is only Mutter for business. I guess if your office is in your home that would be Ok. Stop deluding yourself that coming to YWN or other Kosher places -that they hold is Mutter. It’s not, acc. to them. So are you enjoying your TV? I know I am.
DaasYochid: The difference between avoiding those paths where women are inappropriately clad (as described by Chazal) and installing an internet filter is the reasoning behind the move.
Making a conscious decision to avoid areas where women dress inappropriately is far MORE comparable to making a conscious decision to avoid websites of the same nature. Installing a filter is more comparable to Chazal instructing us to post guards on the roadways leading to these women; guards who bludgeon anyone who attempts to cross.
Because guards are likewise an artificial moral construct in that they exist because outside forces have decided they must, the free will of CHOOSING to avoid those paths is removed. It is highly possible that, in time, these guards themselves will be seen as the mitzvah and the purpose of the avoidance they enforce will be lost.
My intention in noting that Chazal do not demand that we avoid sitting next to women while traveling or interacting with them altogether is to point out that Chazal themselves–the ultimate authorities on human nature–believed that we are capable of self-control.
As I implied in my earlier post, I do NOT simply lock myself in a room with the computer and wage some kind of pitched battle against primal human urges. I MODERATE my own self by either avoiding the internet altogether or using it in the presence of my wife.
A filter is insulting. It implies that God created mankind lacking the ability to overcome their baser instincts without the help of a nanny. It implies that He hands us challenges that are so impossible to bear that we must simply remove ourselves from the battle altogether.
DaasYochid,
1. The correct analogy iss buying sifri kodesh from a publisher whose sefarim have been found to have blank pages (which happens all to often).
2. The analogy to a nazir is that a person does not have to add fences unless he has a specific problem or alternatively has reached the level of chassidut as defined by Messialt Yesharim.See also Taanit 11a,Yerushalmi Kiddushin 4:12 and Nedarim 9:1.
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