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I use unfiltered telephone (I hang up anything I don’t want to hear) and unfilterd mail service (I throw stuff straight into the wastepaper basket if I dont’ want to read it). We deal with unfiltered books (we don’t look at “inappropriate one”). We try to deal with unfiltered people (anyone have any success not hearing Loshon Hora?).
But if there was filtered telephone, mail, etc. I would sign up. So would others.
Unfiltered internet is eating chazir and having a treif kitchen.
Last time I checked, after the chasimas ha’gemoro no further gezeiros can be made.
“??? ??? ????? ??????”
You may argue that somehow a gezeira can still be made nowadays, but at the end of the day, an issur robbonon is not a issur de’oraysa no matter how important it may be to keep it.
AZ:
Can you please clarify your point? How was Rav Wosner shlita and Rav Chaim shlita’s psak different?
AZ,
I saw R’ Chaim’s psak, but only heard R’ Wosner’s second hand. Can you please elaborate?
Based on what I understand, the answers are no & no & no. Can anyone tell me of any filter that will support the above? Nope, you can’t, because it doesn’t exist. End of story.
So I guess you’ll be finding yourself another means for parnassah. Good luck.
Reading tidbits, it seems Rav Chaim is saying it is only permissible to use the internet with a filter. Without a filter it is assur to use the internet. Rav Wosner seems to be going a little further and saying it is assur to use the internet for personal use at all (i.e. having internet at home), even with a filter. But for business use, it is permissible with a filter. Both say that to use the internet at all, even with a filter, one must first ask their Rov a shaila about their personal need for the internet, and obtain a heter, if permissible, for them to use the internet (with a filter).
AZ, is that a good understanding of the psak din of the gedolei haposkim?
We are told that we must, al pi halacha, use a filter if we use the Internet. But what kind of filtering is mandatory?? If we get a simple filter that only blocks out the seven dirty words that is illegal to broadcast over the airwaves, but nothing else, technically you have a filter but it hardly filters anything out. So what is the minimum filtering required al pi halacha?
@DaasYochid – “So I guess you’ll be finding yourself another means for parnassah. Good luck.”
Working for you, right?
I’d probably find something else instead, like a knitted kippah on my head. And saying Hallel and partying on Yom HaAtzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim. I suppose that’s where I’ll end up if this “filter is required” idea is going to be enforced.
Some people ended up being Conservative when the no driving to shul on Shabbos was enforced.
To all the IT people here who seem to say filters are impractical or won’t work for them – Can I ask you the following –
Can’t you have a filter that would hide images, so that when you go to yahoo etc, you don’t have to see improper images and certainly those that may be worse than on yahoo.
It doesn’t mean that you’re not smart enough to get around the filter. But isn’t it better, as you long as you keep the filter on, you don’t inadvertently see things you wish you hadn’t?!
@kollel_wife – I don’t ever go to sites like Yahoo. Why anyone would open such a site is beyond me.
@Naysberg – you completely miss the point. But thanks for the suggestion, maybe I should consider it indeed. (For the record – I am not serious. At least I hope so!)
“Because that wasn’t the moral of the story.”
Actually, the case he references, it WAS and IS the moral of the story. For obvious reasons, he could not disclose all that happened, how it happened, and what led up to it. Suffice to say social media sites such as Facebook can be way more problematic than sitting and watching adult rated movies.
Kollel Wife what else did you learn in sem?
I don’t ever go to sites like Yahoo. Why anyone would open such a site is beyond me.
I use Yahoo as my email service provider. It’s faster than gmail or the other common sites. I have a gmail account as well and I prefer the layout, speed and convenience of Yahoo. If you are using Internet with a filter, you can go directly to your mailbox, bypassing the main news page.
Yahoo is a great website. It is a portal which gives you direct access to weather, stocks, news, Facebook, and many other things. I would understand why people would prefer not to use it, but personally, I find it to be a very convenient website.
I don’t ever go to sites like Yahoo. Why anyone would open such a site is beyond me.
I have a Yahoo e-mail address. That’s why i go on that site.
@Naysberg – you completely miss the point.
Well then, what was your point, if not that if you don’t like what your rabbinic leadership tells you, you’ll just find different leadership?
I have a Yahoo e-mail address. That’s why i go on that site..
It’s unnecessary to go on the Yahoo sire to access a Yahoo email address (aside from the fact that it’s unnecessary to have a Yahoo address to begin with).
I happen to have a Yahoo address in order to receive emails through a frum Yahoo group, But I have no need to visit the actual site.
apushatayid: ‘”Because that wasn’t the moral of the story.” Actually, the case he references, it WAS and IS the moral of the story. For obvious reasons, he could not disclose all that happened, how it happened, and what led up to it. Suffice to say social media sites such as Facebook can be way more problematic than sitting and watching adult rated movies.’
Did you read what I wrote? My entire post was about the problems with people chatting each other about social media when they don’t know each other. NOTHING about movies. My point was that the moral wasn’t get off the internet, because that’s like saying that if people get hit by cars, we shouldn’t drive. Instead, we should look before we cross, and likewise, know who we are chatting with on the internet.
Yes, I do not have a filter. Would you like to know why?
Because when there’s a will there’s a way.
Back in the days before instant accessibility of everything, those who were determined to feast their eyes on certain images FOUND A WAY. Those who truly wished to violate the Torah FOUND A WAY.
Whenever I feel like misbehavior is the direction I’m headed, I DON’T GO ONLINE. If I must be online, I make sure to do so in full view of my wife or others, if I’m out of the house. Do you know why? Because I’m normal. I’m not some half-deranged maniac with little or no impulse control; I’m human. And, as a human, I make my own conscious decisions about morality and I bide by them. Not ALWAYS–as I AM human, after all–but most of the time.
You know, the same as everyone else both pre- and post-internet.
It’s always easy to find a new technology to demonize, but the demons are within us and therefore within our control.
David Bar-Magen, I guess your stronger than a Kohen Gadol…..NOT.
Ain apitropis l’arayos!!!!!!
You win the prize of being the biggest ferd to ever comment on YWN in history.
Shoita.
David, I take it a “filthy” magazine has a place on your coffee table. It goes without saying that you, of course, skip the inappropriate pages.
How sad that people opposed to David’s post, which contained very sensible and non-threatening ideas, even if they aren’t to everyone’s liking, feel the need to reply so venomously.
Spoken in true testament to your username!
I actually replied to both of those guys in detail, but the moderators have yet to post it, for reasons I don’t quite understand.
How sad that people opposed to David’s post, which contained very sensible and non-threatening ideas, even if they aren’t to everyone’s liking, feel the need to reply so venomously.
His idea is not sensible, and quite dangerous. If you carefully read David’s post, he is admitting to occasionally submitting to his yetzer horah on the web, yet still defends keeping his access unfiltered!
Relying on self control alone is a wonderful ideal, but, as Chaza”l tell us and life experience bears out, it doesn’t work.
The thousands of broken neshomas and marriages that we are suffering due to internet addictions all rationalized that they can and will control themselves.
David Bar-Magen
It’s unfortunate that you seem to feel that you know the “Kochas HaNefesh” better then Chazal.
The Gemara in Bava Basra states quite clearly that if one choose to walk in a place of immodesty even thought there is an alternative path then one is considered a “Rosha” even if that person closes their eyes and does not look at the immodest sights.
This Gemora was quoted by Rav Don SEgal shlita at the Asifa.
I would also add that it is unfortunate that you have so little self control over yourself that you have an inability to install a filter on your computer.
B”H though Bnei Yisroel is capable of big things and even when it takes gut wrenching honesty and an realization of how many things that we hae made “normal” (Seeing sights which are in the category of Yeharig V’al Ya’avor”) only once in a while. We are capable of saying enough is enough and taking away the Y”h attempts to ensnare us.
I speak of course to the majority.
The minority amongst us are unfortunatley already so desensitized that they view the “once in a while” viewing of pritzus merely a fact of life nu nu.
B”h for most of us it is not nu nu.
We B’H have enough self control to disallow it.
In Orange County, California, the sewage water is filtered back into drinking water that is sent to the tap. Imagine removing the filters. That is unfiltered internet. Sending the water flushed down the toilet directly to your kitchen sink to drink unfiltered.
David, the Torah’s view (and by that I mean the Gemara and rishonim etc.)is that a person should never put himself in a situation where he may fall to the yetzer hora (“the demons within us” as you put it so well. Made me smile:). An example of this is the famous story of Dovid Hamelech and bas sheva. The medrash says that Dovid actually ASKED to be tested by Hashem, so that he could rise to a higher level ( and be mentioned with the avos in shemona esray). As we all know, sadly Dovid fell to the yetzer hora, and many bad things happened as a result. Our sages conclude that the moral here is never to put yourself in a situation where you can fall, rather play it safe, and don’t try anything fancy.
While your opinion is a reasonable one, (Dovid Hamelech had the same idea after all!) it is not the Torah’s opinion, and therefore not the way a Torah Jew is supposed to act.
Source for my previous post: Sanhedrin 107a
I agree with David. It’s the same thing I say often. I’m from The Netherlands. Though I’m not from Amsterdam, I know Amsterdam quite well. And if I walk through Amsterdam, I know exactly which streets to avoid, in order to avoid nasty sights. There is no halacha that forbids one from walking down a street (though I’m sure some people will think of something), yet I don’t go there. Why? Simply because I stay away from such sights. Simply by being an adult human being with a normal mind and some self-control.
Also as mentioned before a filter cannot work for me for technical reasons, but there is a principal issue as well.
If anyone can come on here and say they have any form of unfiltered internet and have never been on an inappropriate site, I would like to meet you, because you dont exist. I love these guys who say I can trust myself, its normally the addicted to shmutz type.
There is no halacha that forbids one from walking down a street (though I’m sure some people will think of something)
You’re right; I thought of something.
??? ???? ??? ???: ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???
?????: ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????, ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???, ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???, ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??????
The Chassidishe Gatesheader
On the one hand people are provideing the actual sources in Chazal which state clearly that Davids view is contrary to Chazals.
However you post that you agree with David.
In other words you disagree with Chazal.
To chassidishe gateshead, you are right that for a yid to survive he needs to learn self-control.(especially in america today). Without it, it would not be difficult for him to find whatever inappropriate material he wants, they practically give it away on the street corners and supermarket check-out aisles!
And still,we see there is no chiyuv to “move to a holier place”; plenty of mainstream rabbonim live here. Im sure there is no halachic need for you to leave the netherlands.
But there is a huge difference between all these examples and the internet: the internet is under your direct control, while the street is completely out of your control.
The street is a test given to you by hashem, whether you want to be tested or not, so you gotta learn self control or you’re finished.
But the internet is a nisayon that can be avoided, just by installing a filter( for most ppl, i dont know the specific situation of IT people). A test that is in your control to avoid, the halachah is clear that u must avoid. (Sanhedrin, 107a.)
DY, regardless whether it is “dangerous” or not, it is improper for people to reply to him in the manner that they did.
Now, for all of you who are saying that self control either doesn’t work, or isn’t the right way of doing things:
I think that anyone who says self control doesn’t work was either brainwashed (or frightened) into thinking that, or, doesn’t have the self control himself, and therefore thinks that no one does. But the truth is, it is definitely possible to have self control in this. The way to go about doing that is by understanding WHY seeing certain things or reading certain things isn’t good for us. There are books on this. I’ve read many of them. Simply saying “Well, it’s a huge aveira and you’ll go to Hell” won’t work for the vast majority of people. There are very good reasons WHY these things are not good for us. If we can understand the reasons, we can easily have the self control to not see or read these things.
I think this can all be compared to the following: Suppose you live in a forest, and there happen to be lots of thieves around. You can do a few things now: Either move out of the forest, build a fence around your house, or learn how to defend yourself against thieves.
Now, moving out it clearly not the best way of dealing with this. It means the thieves won. And you’ll keep having to move around, because there are thieves everywhere. Not ideal, then.
Building a fence is better, since it lets you continue to live there. But then again, you are completely relying on the fence. If the thieves break through, or the fence falls, or you happen to be in an area without your fence, that’s it. You’re finished.
Or, you do the third thing, and learn how to defend yourself against thieves. Then, no matter where you are, no matter what, you’ll be able to make sure that the thieves can never harm you or steal.
Out of the three, it’s clear that the third option is best. But of course, there may be times when you are weak, or tired, and defending yourself against thieves may be difficult for you. So then, building a fence can help.
The first option, moving out, is banning the internet entirely. Clearly, that isn’t practical.
The second option, only building a fence, is having a filter. That is good, but you are relying on something else to protect you, and when it isn’t there, you’re done.
The third option, learning how to defend ourselves, is educating ourselves as to WHY certain things are detrimental to us, and being in control ourselves, without depending on other things to protect us.
If there are times when our self control IS weak, for whatever reason, then it’s good to have that extra protection of a fence, or filter. But a fence without the self defense is NOT ideal.
I think the main reason why people don’t think of it this way is because they think it’s impossible to have that self control. Well, guess what: With PROPER education, and understanding why certain things are not good, it is not difficult to have that self control. And as I said earlier, I think people who don’t believe this were either brainwashed into it, or just don’t have that self control themselves, and therefore assume no one does.
If anyone can come on here and say they have any form of unfiltered internet and have never been on an inappropriate site, I would like to meet you, because you dont exist. I love these guys who say I can trust myself, its normally the addicted to shmutz type.
I have unfiltered internet. I’m sure many of the sites I visit would be considered inappropriate by some.
There is one site I visit regularly, and in fact, am a moderator on that site. It has several sections, including an “adults only” section. I have never visited that section. I don’t see any reason to.
Since I spend quite a bit of time on that site, I would hate to block it because of a section I don’t even see.
As for Facebook, I would not be in touch with most of my relatives if Facebook didn’t exist. I have some cousins I hadn’t heard from in 20 years, but now we keep up with each other regularly thanks to Facebook. If someone posts something I don’t like, I block that person. It’s not that difficult.
Clay Kodesh: Your posts are sensible and probably P’shat, but you can’t call them Halachah. We don’t learn out Halachos from Aggada. (Bava Basra 56b (I think), on the other hand, is seemingly a good source.)
@ haifagirl. A good idea for you would be web-monitoring, like webchaver.
You would be able to go to any sites you want, but you would be protected from navigating to inappropriate areas by knowing that others( rabbi, spouse, fried who you respect) are watching every move.
@Sam2 oops, i stand corrected.:)
MP,
Nice theory, but contrary to Chaza”l.
There are also serious inconsistencies in your analogy.
Moving out, while indicating that the thieves won, does not in any way mean that the yetzer horah won. Avoiding nisayon is a tool which the Ribono Shel Olam gave us and demands that we use whenever possible.
Building a fence, we agree, is not ideal, but can be helpful.
Learning to defend yourself is great, but you somehow forgot to mention that the thieves may win, and you’ll be dead.
You also misunderstand the position that self control is insufficient. That point of view (which is Chazal”s) in no way diminishes the need for self control; it merely mandates complimenting it with whatever other means are possible.
guys you don’t need to get harmful filters like k-9 or web chaver or j-net. If you have an apple there is a parental control setting. If not google chrome extensions.
DY, first, let me just say I very much appreciate that our discussion is polite and civil. Thank you.
Regarding the “serious inconsistencies”:
“Moving out, while indicating that the thieves won, does not in any way mean that the yetzer horah won.”
I should not have used the word “won”. I should have said “in control”. And yes, avoiding a nisayon is a good thing when possible, as long as it isn’t a constant problem. But there comes a point where it is far better to turn around and deal with the nisayon properly than to keep running from it.
“Building a fence, we agree, is not ideal, but can be helpful.”
Yes. Which means that having a filter, without proper the education to defend yourself with when you find yourself in a situation without a filter, is not ideal.
“Learning to defend yourself is great, but you somehow forgot to mention that the thieves may win, and you’ll be dead.”
Of course, which is why the second protection of having a fence can help with that problem. So having both is best. But regarding having one or the other, it’s better to know self defense than to just have a fence. Also, I think many people are under the impression that it’s like a 50/50 chance if you or the thieves will win. But that isn’t the reality in regard to being properly educated about what is wrong with certain things on the internet. Someone who IS properly educated in regard to those things, and is responsible, will win almost all of the time. I say almost, because saying “always” is false. Which is why a fence (filter) will make your chances even better.
I agree that merely self control will not protect you 100 percent of the time, since periodic falls can, and will, happen. I am just against the massive focus on having filters, without focusing on how important self control is, and how becoming educated in WHY things are wrong is far better than having a filter without that knowledge.
middlepath, you are correct. If you simply restrict a kid, and he wants to look at something he isn’t supposed to, he will.
I am just against the massive focus on having filters, without focusing on how important self control is, and how becoming educated in WHY things are wrong is far better than having a filter without that knowledge.
I don’t know why you think the two are mutually exclusive. The massive focus on filters has in no way detracted from the message about our being an Am Kadosh and needing to remain pure.
Nobody (that I know of) has ever said that filters are enough, and one doesn’t need yiras shomayim and proper chinuch.
Why would you object to the “massive focus on filters” when you agree that it’s an important tool, and nobody has suggested it replacing self control/yiras shomayim, only complimenting?
I think we all agree that any self-respecting torah jew should have both self-control and a filter of some kind to help cover all the bases.
And that either one alone is simply not enough.
Again, i dont know if filters are an effective solution for IT people.
Lakewhut,
We’re not just talking about kids.
Besides, what you wrote is a gross generalization. If a child is brought up with proper chinuch (which is much broader than this discussion),he/she will often follow his/her parents’ guidance (which includes restrictions) with simcha.
lakewhut, agreed.
DY, being an am kadosh and needing to remain pure are wonderful things, but they won’t necessarily prevent someone from viewing something undesirable. And I agree, as I’ve said, that having filters is a good idea.
I don’t object to the focus on filters itself, I object to focusing on filters WITHOUT focusing on, with at least as much energy, proper education. So, if there really is a plan of action in the frum world to provide proper education about what is wrong and WHY it is wrong, and how to use the internet responsibly, BESIDES having a filter, then I have no issues with that. I fully support that. I’m just waiting to see that happen.
don’t need a filter just turn on parental control, duh
@lakewhut
isnt a parental control the same as a filter?
MP: We ARE providing a (proper) education in Klal Yisroel. Our wonderful mechanchm working hard together with parents are providing a wonderful education, based on the Torah hashkofos espoused by the gedolim shlit”a, to our tinokos sheel beis raban.
AND IT IS WORKING!!
Yet, we still need additional tools to complement that. One of those tools are filters.
DY, being an am kadosh and needing to remain pure are wonderful things, but they won’t necessarily prevent someone from viewing something undesirable.
That’s exactly why it’s much better not to have web access, and if access is necessary, a filter is absolutely essential.
I object to focusing on filters WITHOUT focusing on, with at least as much energy, proper education.
So do I.
So, if there really is a plan of action in the frum world to provide proper education about what is wrong and WHY it is wrong
That’s an obvious conclusion which comes from a Torah chinuch.
and how to use the internet responsibly
Here’s where our disagreement begins. Why focus on something which is best avoided? You wouldn’t want your kids being taught how to safely become intoxicated, would you? (I know – it’s not a perfect analogy because you’ll argue that for some, web access is a necessity, but I agree to proper education in how to use the internet for someone who needs it, starting with how to properly filter).
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