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Based on some of the recent conversations here in the YWN Coffee Room as well as some recent news. I wanted to pose the question.
There is no arguement that unfiltered access to the internet has caused a literal Churban in Klal Yisroel it has destroyed homes turned children off the derech and more. The Danger of unfiltered access to the internet is real.
Not only that but there is serious doubt as to whether it is halachically permissiable to have unfiltered access to the Internet in ones home.
If so why is it that there seems to be a growing chorus of people screaming in righteous indignation at those who would dare get drunk on Purim. Something which has been the accepted Mesorah for hundreds of years and may cause damage or may not. But when it comes to the growing threat of the Internet these same people are silent.
Drunkenness is worse.
Unfiltered internet can be a threat to Kedushas Yisroel, and even to Tsuras Adam (being a human).
A Drunk has already lost Tsuras Adam.
I do not believe we have a widely accepted Mesorah for real Drunkenness, even for one day a year.
The question is, is the drinking being done al pi mesorah. There’s a beautiful story in The Heavenly City about a nistar named Baruch Mordechai. We have come (down) a long, long way from that, and some of the other inspiring Purim lore.
unfiltered internet can kill your neshama. Drinking to much can kill you physically. At least there is a chance at doing teshuva while your alive.
IMO, they aren’t comparable. While unfiltered internet has a virtually 100% likelihood of causing serious negative consequences both spiritually and possibly even physically that can sometime be difficult to almost impossible to completely recover from, drinking one day a year can be managed responsibly by many people – as demonstrated by 1,000’s of years of Purim.
“drinking one day a year can be managed responsibly by many people – as demonstrated by 1,000’s of years of Purim”
Unfortunately, a much smaller group demonstrate the opposite.
The Mesorah is to drink more than usual, not get to the level of degradation.
Ben Levi, even were it true that a greater churban is caused by the internet than by drinking (and I do not accept that as a given), what someone does in the privacy of his home on the internet is known only to him and damages him privately. What some foolish teenager or even more foolish OLDER guy does in PUBLIC while intoxicated is known to ALL. NEITHER of these is good for those people, but the danger of causing physical damage to himself and to OTHER innocent victims is far greater when one is drunk, than when one is using the internet (which CAN be used for the good, as well, as opposed to drunkenness, which bodes no good for anyone).
Unfortunately, a much smaller group demonstrate the opposite.
As you admit, it is a much smaller group than the masses and masses of Yidden who can and do drink responsibly and become shikur on Purim per our Mesorah.
The much smaller group can’t change the Mesorah of others with their irresponsible behavior. They need to control and refine their behavior. And if that means refrain from drinking too much due to their inability to restrain themselves from taking matters to far, then they have to do what it takes for themselves. Nevertheless, this much smaller groups issue will not interrupt the much larger masses of Klal Yisroel from practicing their Mesorah as their Zeida’s practiced it for 1,000’s of years on Purim, and is codified in our Seforim HaKedoshim.
It is not such a small group. Let’s tell it like it is. If it were not such a problem, people like Rabbi Shmuel Kamenentzky and Rabbi Twersky would not be telling us it is assur. Obviously it is a far greater epidemic than has been previously thought to be so.
oomis, We’re going to have to agree to disagree. You and your like-minded will minimize your drinking on Purim, whilst we and all our like-minded Yidden will follow in the footsteps of our Zeida’s and as codified in the Seforim and will drink Ad D’Lo Yoda.
The Gemora (Megillah 7b) quotes Rovo that “one is obligated liv’sumi [Rashi – to become intoxicated with wine] on Purim ad d’loi yoda [until one cannot distinguish] between ‘cursed is Homon’ and ‘blessed is Mordechai'”. Shulchan Aruch (OC 695:2) and Remo, rule in accordance with Rovo, and state that this is an obligation. The Bach states that according to the Tur one is literally required to become so intoxicated on Purim that one is unable to distinguish any difference between ‘cursed is Homon’ and ‘blessed is Mordechai’. The Shelo Hakodoish and Chacham Tzvi are said to have fulfilled Rovo’s ruling literally. The Shelo Hakodoish is also quoted as stating that one who is frail by nature is exempt from becoming intoxicated – the implication being that one who is fit and healthy is obligated to become intoxicated. The Rambam (Hilchos Megilla 2:15) rules that one should take wine to the stage that one becomes intoxicated and falls asleep. The Sfas Emes explains that the obligation of ad d’lo yoda is a requirement to rejoice and drink continually.
In the section on shidduchim someone said that part of the problem with shidduchim was that (not an exact quote, but the basic idea of they said was) “the women went out into the world and learned to have minds of their own and the mothers of the boys could not manipulate them they way they used to be easily manipulated”.
Saying they “had minds of their own” strongly implies it was good for the girls to go out into the secular world and get some ‘sophistication’ that the boys did not have so they would not be “manipulated” or have to ‘look up to the men going out to work and earning the money” as it used to be in the old days.
And yet this outside world is exactly what is being complained about that is brought into the home, by the internet.
So which way is it?
Is it good to go out and become “sophisticated” as they praise the girls for doing or is it the bane of the frum community and harbinger of it’s destruction?
I highly doubt anyones Zaydes, or Rebbes, got so drunk to the point where they were puking their guts out and were a danger to themselves and those around them. The “famous posek” you reffer to, I doubt he was barfing all over the table and I highly doubt he gave his haskama to those who did so as well. Moreover, if he felt that the drinking done around him had nothing to do with ad dlo yada and everything to do with “having a good time” I am 100% certain he would have told those people to stop drinking.
Lastly, it is very easy to quote “famous posking”, “great roshei yeshiva” and “prominent rabbonim”. We all can. It is a completely unverifiable claim. Name names. Who said what tpo whom and when. Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky has been quoted as advocating the exact opposite of what you are. Please name a contemporary Rav or Rosh Yeshiva who disagrees with him. Rav Shmuel knows the Rambam and all the sources you cite and he STILL said what he did, are you saying he is at odds with them? He doesn’t know of them or understand them? For your “argument” to have any validity (in my eyes) please provide a name.
Also even in the middle of the most frum community into the grocery stores and the shoe stores and eateries etc….the most untznius people sometimes come into shop.
Smetimes they are not even Jewish at all.
So unless everyone is going to be banned from working and banned from even comming out of their houses banning the internet will not insulate anyone from the rest of teh world.
I never ehard of any frun yidden stoping from going into the Jewlery business and working in Manhattan because some extremly untznius people would come into teh stores and be seen on teh streets where the yidden had to go to and be in order to do their jobs and I never heard anyone quoting Rambam or Aurach Hashulchan, in complaint against it.
“there will be singing dancig laughing”
All of which we can ALL do without getting drunk – and BETTER, because we aren’t falling over each other when we are not smashed. I do not need to debate this. Those who feel the need to justify their potentially egregious behavior in drinking to excess and possibly acting like animals in public places, will find an halachic basis for it. The rest of us will find an halachic basis for NOT causing a great chillul Hashem on Purim this year, as has happened in previous years. I sincerely pray that none of the drinkers has cause to regret his dedication to this one halacha, that can be interpreted in so many less dangerous ways than taht of blanket permission to get blotto.
Ben Levi: Of course it’s not good to have unfiltered access to the internet in your house. If you’re going to have the internet it should be in a public part of the house, where anyone can walk in at any time and preferably it should be filtered. I don’t think anyone is going to argue with that and we’ve been hearing this almost ad nauseum.
What you say about drinking that it “may cause damage or may not.” is ridiculous. Anyone who is not drunk on purim has witnessed numerous examples of damage caused by people in the name of mesorah. The chillul Hashem caused by kids getting drunk and having to go to the hospital, getting arrested, causing damage to people or property is enormous. The physical danger and possibility for chillul Hashem is reason enough to speak out against it. The reason people are more outspoken about drinking than about the internet is probably because the drinking is public and everyone sees it where as the internet problems are private and not seen by everyone.
Those who should not have unlimited access to internet should not have unlimited access to alcohol.
The next question is up what age for both. Perhaps 80.
For alcohol, the bottles should be stored with two locks, one can only be opened by husband and one by wife.
For some of us, Yichud with a bottle is very dangerous.
Noah and Lot were not degraded by the internet.
The Mitzvah of drinking on Purim can be accomplished with the proper Shimirah (protection from excess) in place.
There is quite the problem of yichud out there in the world.
When a person is alone in a store, just about to close and someone walks in
or two singles live on the same floor in an apartment building for example.
The comparison here is not correct. The reason not to have unfiltered internet access in the home is because there is the potential for negative consequences, i.e., you may be tempted to get involved in inappropriate conduct that can have disastrous results involving people veering off the proper spiritual path. Drinking excessively on Purim is the dangerous act itself and the equivalent to the question about unfiltered internet access would be the simple act of having liquor or wine in the home. You must be careful with both, but drinking excessively is like looking at shmutz on the internet, not the same as having the ability to look at shmutz if you were so tempted.
Youdontknowme, made the same point as I. The internet is very private, and CAN be filtered voluntarily, but even if not it is still private. Getting drunk on Purim is RARELY private, and in any case, people who drink alone are at risk for becoming potential alcoholics, but I digress. I did not ignore the issue, Ben LEvi, I was responding to a specific point. You seem to feel one cannot have a good time without drinking to excess on Purim, and that is a canard. Believe it or not, one can feel trtemendous simcha without being snockered. And if you are worried about internet use, I suggest using a filter on yours. After all, you are posting here, so someone is using the internet at your house.
I remember being taught that one may fulfill the mitzvoh of not knowing the difference between “cursed be Haman ” and “Blessed be Mordechai” just by drinking more then usual or by sleeping (possibly even just by drinking milk?).
One problem with drinking is that it’s not just public but could endanger the public such as when someone drinks and the G-d forbid, drives.
The internet does not cause such direct immediate damage.
Technology is not good or evil.
It’s how it’s used that makes the difference.
I guess I’m in big trouble. My internet is unfiltered. I just monitor my own behavior. And there is no such thing as a “public area” of my apartment, unless I go out into the stairwell. And the Rambam said women should not go out of the house more than once or twice a month. So if I don’t go to work, who will support me?
I think of the internet as a big city. As with any big cities, there are safe areas and unsafe areas. There are shopping districts and red-light districts.
No one has built a wall to keep me out of the unsafe areas or out of the red-light districts, yet somehow I manage to avoid them almost all of the time. If I happen to find myself in one, by accident, I leave quickly.
Also, is there any virtue for doing the right thing, if doing the right thing is enforced? We keep kosher not because it’s easy to do, not because it is externally enforced with filters and fences, but because we seek to do what is right, and eat in a holy manner. If all non-kosher food were to taste bad, would following the holy diet have any meaning?
Shouldn’t we be allowed to CHOOSE to do the right thing, in the face of temptation?
And why do we admire the drunkard who straightens out his life and returns to sobriety more than the drunkard who merely follows temptation and continues to drink, while his life collapses around him?
And if there were no temptations, would living a virtuous life be a virtue?
Can anyone declare with certainty that he or she is ALWAYS in full control of his or her thoughts and actions?
If not, you require a filter.
(That’s why I have YeshivaNet.)
Ron- Last time and this time, you left quickly, but next time, or the next?
Why would you put yourself in a dangerous place so frequently if you can so easily avoid the danger??
Why are they mutually exclusive? Halacha and seichel is against both. Who here is bigger than the roshei yeshiva who signed on the kol koreis, or bigger than Rav shmuel Kaminetzky shlit”a, or bgger than the poskim who say not to be mevatel krias shema, bentching and maariv? And who here knows more than the hatzala members if it’s a sakanah or not?
Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky specifically told children at risk – from Project Yes – that they should follow the less stringent shitta. The R”Y was not speaking to the public at large. If anyone is in doubt about this, they are welcome to visit the Yeshiva in Philadelphia for Simchas Purim and bear eidus to shikur bochorim.
volvie, I personally follow the shitoh to get drunk until I forget Shoshanas Yaakov.
But all these people yelling about drunk bochrim are trying to undermine halacha just because some exploit it.
Just like if there aer car accidents you would outlaw driving. Ridiculous!
Talmid: Exactly.
Any mekoros to look into? I can’t find any.
TLC that is a poor analogy. No one said to eliminate drinking on Purim, only to LIMIT the excessive use of alcohol by people too young and immature to understand the impact their actions have on themselves and on others, who have a right to enjoy THEIR Purim night as well. That is not undermining halacha, but it interesting that you view simple menschlechkeit in that way.
I apologize if I have misunderstood your intentions oomis, but the question is who is too ‘young’? I hope you will not quote American law to prove me the age, as some did in the ‘Drinking on Purim’ thread. The medinoh doesn’t decide our halocho
oomis, No one on this or any other thread disagreed with to “LIMIT the excessive use of alcohol by people too young and immature to understand the impact their actions have on themselves and on others.”
It has been suggested in this forum that it is only a minority of people that take drinking to an excess. I suspect the same is also true of unfiltered internet usage.
The difference being, that a single person who falters online can negatively affect many people at once (the details have been spelled out at numerous asifos and dont require further details here). A person with a drinking problem, can negatively affect only those in proximity to him (although it can be quite a negative affect – especially if it causes injury or death).
It think if we spent more time teaching basic hashkafas hachaim and fostering greater yiras shamayim in yeshivos and bais yackovs we will be better equipped to deal with the challenges posed by the world wide web, drinking and anything else society throws our way. We dont. We are so busy saying that everything is bad, and then banning it, our kids dont know WHY these things are bad and when it isnt spelled out in black and white for them, they are at a loss how to proceed.
I watched a missionary “debate” several yeshiva bachurim on a Manhattan subway platform recently and they were simply at a loss about how to respond to his “questions”. (Its bad enough they werent even familiar with perek beis in tehillim) They really couldnt explain why yiddishkeit had an issue with people who claimed to be monotheistic but had a few different beliefs. They were unfamiliar with some of the basic Ani Maamins. If they cant deal with basic hashkafa questions, how can we expect them to deal with the challenges of the internet, peer pressure (drinking being an example – especially when it is clothed in “proofs” from poskim) and the myriad other activities that are the antithesis of what the torah wants from a yid. Stop banning and start teaching.
So it seems then we have a consensus on the two issues at hand:
1. One should not use the internet unfiltered.
2. Those too young and immature to handle excessive alcohol should not be allowed to do so, while those who can should.
Freilichen Purim!
Well said volvie.
So then really NO ONE is disagreeing. FINALLY!
It’s amazing isn’t it? We were focusing too much on the semantics and we we’re all stressing different areas… but in essence, we all agreed with each other!
I think those too young and immature to use the internet unfiltered, should not. Those who are old enough and mature enough may do so. The same is true with a telephone and lashon hara, a car and reckless driving, the list is endless. “Internet” has become the fall guy for all that ails us and it is “banned”. Did anyone ban driving by everyone without a hetter from their rav that they are old enough and mature enough to drive safely?
Volvie, I disagree. Nobody SHOULD do excessive drinking. I define excessive drinking as drinking which causes the drinker to be mevatel mitzvos asey deoraysah. Volvie, there is also no shita to drink the night before (when many bochurim get drunk). Volvie, do you agree that any bochur who is mevatel mitzvos asey deoraysah is NOT being makayem a mitzvah, as the mitzvah derabanan of drinking on Purim is NOT doche mitzvos deoraysah?
I drink plenty on Purim- Grey Goose, as per the psak of my rav that any mashkeh is acceptable. but I am also mekayem the mitzvos deoraysah, as per the mishna brurah. Those who don’t are drinking excessively. Those who drink themselves to the point of alcohol poisoning are also doing an aveirah.
Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky has not said, to the best of my knowledge, (and if I am wrong, I will gladly change my statement), that someone who is old enough and mature enough to use the internet unfiltered, may not do so.
jphone: Rav Shmuel HAS said that everyone who uses the internet (supposing they have a dire need for the internet in the first place) should have it filtered.
Jothar: One can follow the shitta of Rovo as described in the Gemora (Megillah 7b) and the Shulchan Aruch (OC 695:2) and Remo, Bach, Tur, the Shelo Hakodish, the Chacham Tzvi, Rambam, and the Sfas Emes (as I enumerated their positions on the previous page of this thread) whilst still not being mevatel mitzvos asey deoraysah.
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