Uganda

I am old enough to remember the days of “Dada”, so we absolutely would not have wished to be in Uganda.

For the younger generation of this coffee room, “Dada” I am talking about Idi Amin.

Chulent, learn some history. The 6th Zionist congress in 1903 voted in favour of a commission to investigate the Uganda idea, and Herzl himself clearly stated at that congress that even were it to come to fruition, it was meant as a temporary measure to save lives from vicious Russian antisemitism. It was never a first inclination. ( you may have heard of the Kishinev pogrom in 1903 and the Kiev pogrom in 1905, but, then again, you may not care, because one can’t let facts get in the way of one’s world view, right?) and according to Herzl a Jewish state in Israel was the ultimate goal. The proposal almost split the movement entirely, and it was abandoned for good at the next Zionist congress less than 2 years later. the Jewish Agency and Emory university, among many others, have the primary source documents to back this up. I am sure that you have adequate sources for your slander.

The willingness of the Zionists to consider Uganda demonstrates nothing about their perception of Torah and Judaism. It speaks clearly, though, about their desire to save Jewish lives.

Gavra, it was never intended as an either or, and it never got past the investigatory stage. Even if it had, its sole purpose was to rescue Jews 35 years before the Holocaust.

yichusdik -“Chulent, learn some history. The 6th Zionist congress in 1903 voted in favour of a commission to investigate the Uganda idea, and Herzl himself clearly stated at that congress that even were it to come to fruition, it was meant as a temporary measure to save lives from vicious Russian antisemitism. It was never a first inclination. ( you may have heard of the Kishinev pogrom in 1903 and the Kiev pogrom in 1905, but, then again, you may not care, because one can’t let facts get in the way of one’s world view, right?) and according to Herzl a Jewish state in Israel was the ultimate goal. The proposal almost split the movement entirely, and it was abandoned for good at the next Zionist congress less than 2 years later. the Jewish Agency and Emory university, among many others, have the primary source documents to back this up. I am sure that you have adequate sources for your slander.

The willingness of the Zionists to consider Uganda demonstrates nothing about their perception of Torah and Judaism. It speaks clearly, though, about their desire to save Jewish lives.”

Actually Chulent is right, except that he states -“first consideration”.

You post right out of a Zionist Propaganda Book. It’s very hard to know the history of what hapenned because most of the historians are Zionists. It is probably true that Teddy sought it as a temporary means, but your line about abadonment by ALL two years later is false. And this part of Chulent’s post is accurate – “demonstrates the zionists complete lack of allegiance to, and despisal of, Torah and Judaism.”

Some Zionists created an org. to create a State anywhere, so this proves Chulent’s statement. The following is from the Jewish virtual library:

While Herzl made it clear that this program would not affect the ultimate aim of Zionism, a Jewish entity in the Land of Israel, the proposal aroused a storm at the Congress and nearly led to a split in the Zionist movement.

The Uganda Program was finally rejected by the Zionist movement at the Seventh Zionist Congress in 1905, but Nahum Syrkin and Israel Zangwill called an alternative conference to continue the plan of the Uganda scheme.

After the rejection of the Uganda scheme on the grounds of impracticability by the British, Zangwill turned his attention to settlement in Canada and Australia. But opposition from local residents led him to abandon the scheme. Expeditions were sent to Mesopotamia (Iraq), Cyrenaica (Libya) and Angola but little came of these expeditions.

A project that had some concrete success was the Galveston scheme which contemplated the settlement of Jews in the American Southwest, in particular in Texas.

The project received the assistance of Jacob Schiff, the American Jewish banker, and some 9,300 Jews arrived in that area between 1907-1914, through the Emigration Bureau of the Territorialist organization.

“A truly almost empty country with a negligible native population”

In the 18th and 19th centuries, when Jews began returning in larger numbers, That designation fit perfectly to Palestine. Didn’t stop the negligible native population from making a pretty big stink!!

Health, I’ve read the Jewish Virtual Library too. Absolutely nothing you quoted from there contradicts anything I wrote. And if you don’t trust the Jewish Agency (though they have original source documents, and I don’t imagine you expect a chareidi stenographer to have been taking notes at a Zionist congress in 1903) Then you might be interested in Emory University’s collection – not just what they have online, but what they have in their library. They don’t have a Zionist agenda. The ITO grew far apart from the Zionist movement between 1905 and 1917, not the least because of the realities of the turbulence and the world war that emerged.

yichusdik -“Health, I’ve read the Jewish Virtual Library too. Absolutely nothing you quoted from there contradicts anything I wrote.”

I guess you have a very short memory -let me refresh it & quote your post:

“The proposal almost split the movement entirely, and it was abandoned for good at the next Zionist congress less than 2 years later.”

It was not abandoned for good. Many Zionists liked the idea and started an org. to implement it.

“The willingness of the Zionists to consider Uganda demonstrates nothing about their perception of Torah and Judaism. It speaks clearly, though, about their desire to save Jewish lives.”

Nonsense, as you see they wanted Uganda and then a few other different places. Stop trying to rewrite history to favor Zionists & Zionism!