Tzniyus During Exercise

since when do women give their own narrowminded teitch of gemorahs?”

Please take it down a notch. “The Gemarah actually SAYS, YES, Kimchis was 100% correct! The walls of one’s house should never see a (married)woman’s hair????!!!!” Please. I am not giving any

teitch, even if I knew how. Please do not insult the intelligence of women who do not choose to understand things in the exact same manner as you choose to understand them. I view the Kimchis story as an illustration of one woman’s assessment of her own personal tznius. Period. Most women will never be the mother’s of a kohein gadol, and though the walls of my house (and my friends’ homes)DO see my and their hair from time to time, I think Hashem gave us pretty terrific kids in spite of this apparent “avla.” BTW, narrowmindedness works both ways. Re-read your own words to me.

mw13, its called for when someone repeatedly and constantly twists gemorahs not to her liking to reinterpert it to her liking — often with the exact opposite meaning the gemorah intended. I repeat, this has been a pattern. “

Helpful, I am going to word my post carefully, because when one is angered, it is better to refrain from response. I LOVE the Torah, which includes the Gemorah. Though I do not learn Gemorah, I know enough to know there is halacha and there is discussion about halacha. They are not the same thing. The halacha is what Hashem says it is. The discussion is the (granted) learned opinion of Chazal, many of whom could not agree with each other on some crucial issues. We follow what came down at the end, as the halacha. What the Gemorah intended should be what HASHEM intended.

Sometimes there seems to be a conflict, and that is what bothers me. If Hashem does not want women’s hair to be visible even in their own homes and actually SAID SO at HAr Sinai, then that is the halacha and i would never question it. I do not believe however, that Hashem said that EVER, and I certainly do not take as Torah m’Sinai the TAITCH of Kimchis’ answer to a question (and who asked her this question anyway – it surely could not have been the Gedolim, because that clearly would not be tzniusdig to have such a sicha with a married woman about her children, right? That’s also in the mishneh of al tarbeh sicha…).

And if you would open your mind just a teeny tiny bit, perhaps you would understand that not everything you hold to be true for yourself, is necessarily what other frum people hold and THEY MIGHT BE AS RIGHT AS YOU THINK YOU ARE. Don’t disparage someone because she does not believe that every medrash is to be taken literally (they actually can’t, because many contradict each other), or that everything written in the Gemarah is also meant to be followed as halacha, when in fact what it is doing is serving to teach an ideal that some people feel is right for them.

Off this issue, the entire discussion about tznius in exercise is naarishkeit. If a woman is alone, and all exercising women in general, she should be dressed comfortable so she doesn’t get heat stroke from the exercise. Zumba (I don’t do it myself), is a vigorous dancing type exercise, perhaps African in nature. It works all the muscles of the body and is quite effective, I have heard. If you believe women should dress in long sleeves and dresses to exercise, then dress that way. The rest of us want to be comfortable in the rpivacy of our own homes. And show me the source please for having to wear sox at all, much less to take them off under the covers. Maybe we should take our showers in a bathing dress, too.

Helpful: “mw13, its called for when someone repeatedly and constantly twists gemorahs not to her liking to reinterpert it to her liking — often with the exact opposite meaning the gemorah intended. I repeat, this has been a pattern.”

No, that doesn’t call for labeling a woman “narrowminded”.

If you have an issue with oomis’s interpretations of gemaros, say so. You had some fairly intelligent arguments in your post – but what exactly do you think you accomplished (besides sounding incredibly narrow minded yourself) with your first sentence?

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ooimis1105 – “What the Gemorah intended should be what HASHEM intended.”

It is. That leads to the obvious question: What exactly did the Gemora mean? That’s where the all the Rishonim, Achronim, etc. come in: to tell us what the Gemora truly meant, and how to apply its principles halacha li’maseh.

“Sometimes there seems to be a conflict, and that is what bothers me. If Hashem does not want women’s hair to be visible even in their own homes and actually SAID SO at HAr Sinai, then that is the halacha and i would never question it.”

In case you didn’t notice, Hashem did not give us a Shulchan Orach style assur/muttar checklist. He gave us far more: Principles that can be applied (by the Rabbonim) to any case.

“I do not believe however, that Hashem said that EVER”

Hashem may not have told us directly: however, the Rabbonim have deduced from the words of Gemaros and the principles that they contain, that this is Hashem’s will. Is it a chiyuv? Of course not. Is it a good thing to do? Unquestionably.

“Don’t disparage someone because she does not believe… that everything written in the Gemarah is also meant to be followed as halacha, when in fact what it is doing is serving to teach an ideal that some people feel is right for them.”

Disparaging somebody is indeed wrong. However, as Helpful pointed out, why would the Gemora bring down a story if not to approve of it? And as Midwest2 said, which yeshivos did you learn in that you are so confident in your explanations of what the Gemora means? Did you even read the Gemora once? Probably not, no? So then what gives you the ability to explain to us what the Gemora is or is not referring to?

“the entire discussion about tznius in exercise is naarishkeit. If a woman is alone, and all exercising women in general, she should be dressed comfortable so she doesn’t get heat stroke from the exercise. Zumba (I don’t do it myself), is a vigorous dancing type exercise, perhaps African in nature. It works all the muscles of the body and is quite effective, I have heard. If you believe women should dress in long sleeves and dresses to exercise, then dress that way. The rest of us want to be comfortable in the rpivacy of our own homes.”

Yes, I fully understand that you want to be comfortable while exercising. However, what do you think should come first on your list of priorities: comfort, or fulfilling the halacha?! If the halacha says something is assur, whether it is comfortable and convenient or not makes no difference: we must do what Hashem tells us to do, whether we enjoy it or not. Being frum is not always easy.

Regarding excercise and dressing “tsniusdik”. Let’s go back one step. Isn’t excercise (or much of what passes for excercise anyway) inherently untznius? I mean, aren’t body parts that are normally at rest moving all over. Limbs stretched and twisted this way and that. Does it really matter WHAT you are wearing or HOW you are dressed while engaged in this activity? Perhaps the question should be restated. May a woman excercise in front of a man, no matter how tsniusdik she is dressed? Does it matter if this man is a jew or non jew?H

OK, bottom line for me, the words of the Gemorah, the chachomim etc. are still divided by what we MUST do, and what SOME feel are good suggestions. Hashem did not give us the Aseres Eitzos or Taryag Recommendations. he gave us a specific Derech to follow. Some rabbonim feel that ever more stringent followings are better for us, but that does not make those things either a chiyuv OR necessarily the best advice. It was the best advice that they felt inclined to follow ADDITIONALLY to the actual halacha, at the time in which they lived and said what they said. There are very few frum women today who would argue that the way to have wonderful kids is to refrain from upsetting the sensibilities of one’s walls by letting them see her hair. IT WAS A MASHAL. It teaches us that tznius is of utmost importance (no argument from me on that issue). And I would hope that no one here actually believes that a woman whose head is uncovered in the privacy of her own home, is somehow committing a terrible aveira that makes her unworthy of having wonderful, beautiful, and successful children.

“However, as Helpful pointed out, why would the Gemora bring down a story if not to approve of it? And as Midwest2 said, which yeshivos did you learn in that you are so confident in your explanations of what the Gemora means? Did you even read the Gemora once? Probably not, no? So then what gives you the ability to explain to us what the Gemora is or is not referring to?”

I did not read the Gemarah, it was read and taught to us in classes on tznius and Taharas hamishpacha, to make the point of why we need to cover our hair after marriage. My teacher was very careful to point out that this was not meant to imply it was a must-do. The story of Kimchis was not meant to convey that she is an absolute role model to be emulated, but rather it is her dedication to tznius that IS to be emulated.

Her attitude and hashkafa, but not necessarily her actions, were to teach us something about personal modesty, to the point that even the “walls of a house” have feelings. We see this same idea of sensitivity when Moshe Rabbeinu was supposed to speak to Selah to get water, and instead he hit it. If an inanimate object deserved to be treated with respect, how much more so are we mechuyavim to treat live creations of Hashem with respect and dignity. If we must be sensitive even to the sensibilities of the walls of a house which cannot have a reaction, kal v’chomer our tznuius must be proper in front of people who DO react.

BTW, someone does not have to be a Gemarah learner to hear something told and learn from it or have a personal insight from it. Don’t disparage that. We say mekal melamdi hiskalti. That would seem redundant, because melamdi means those who have taught me. So from all those who have taught me I have gained wisdom seems like a double loshon. The idea is that everyone has some wisodom to impart, and it is the wise person who learns something from everyone who has something to teach him, even from an ignorant person like me, who didn’t learn Gemarah. I didn’t learn all the midrashim, either, but it does not take a talmid chochom to know that the fruit Chava gave to Odom could not have simultanesously been a grape, an esrog, a piece of wheat, and whatever else Chazal say. It’s not about the words that are written, but about the idea that is being conveyed by those words.

Have a good Shabbos.

“IT WAS A MASHAL.”

Source?

“My teacher was very careful to point out that this was not meant to imply it was a must-do.”

I repeat: Is it a chiyuv? Of course not. Is it a good thing to do? Unquestionably.

“Her attitude and hashkafa, but not necessarily her actions, were to teach us something about personal modesty, to the point that even the “walls of a house” have feelings.”

Somebody’s actions are a reflection of their hashkafa, and their hashkafa is conveyed by their actions. If one is a good example, so is the other.

“someone does not have to be a Gemarah learner to hear something told and learn from it or have a personal insight from it. Don’t disparage that.”

You can have all the personal insights you want; but you cannot make up your own pashat in a Gemora you never read, use it to prove your own hashkafa, and expect people to accept that.

blinky, I don’t know if you’ve ever been to a gym, but often you are much more tznius wearing pants while exercising, then attempting to do so wearing a skirt.

“what is better?”

who said either are acceptable?

miss me – so are you saying not to do exercise???

I go to a non-Jewish womens-only gym. About 50 – 60% of the clientele are frum women. Pretty much everyone wears pants; anyone who’s gone to a gym knows that practically speaking, it doesn’t make much sense, tznius wise or otherwise, to wear a skirt while exercising. The only thing that caught my attention is that I see some married women uncover their hair at the gym, while others make sure to always keep it covered.

You can have all the personal insights you want; but you cannot make up your own pashat in a Gemora you never read, use it to prove your own hashkafa, and expect people to accept that.”

Who says so? I see pshat and drash every time I open a chumash. I learned that Gemarahin kallah classes, even if I did not read it personally, and I reach my own conclusions about what I learn from something, especially when it is not halacha, but a mashal of something. Kimchis’ story was not about halacha, nor meant to convey that it was. It was an example of ONE WOMAN’S belief about her zechuyos. And one should not post things that are clearly not halacha and present it as such, no matter HOW good the lesson may be, and expect people to accept that. It works both ways.