Tzniut Problems In The 5 Towns

You eat out every day? Nice

I knew someone who tried looking at the ground. He saw filthy graffiti. If you have no choice you are anoos. Try thinking about the aveira (both yours and theirs). Think about how degrading it is for a person to go about like an animal.

First, the issue is to define “tznius problem”
If his problem is defined as women walking with sleeves above the elbow and knee length dresses and skirts, then it is truly his problem.
People sometimes think because it’s “their” community, they get to regulate/complain about how people dress. It happens in Boro Park on 13th Ave and it happened in Williamsburg when the City put in bicycle lanes on Bedford avenue ( people objected to immodestly dressed women riding thru Williamsburg ).

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I spent a Shabbos in Cedarhurst for a simcha last year. I thought that everyone there bought their clothes on sale – 50% off!

Not everyone in 5T has this problem. I was at a wedding last week for a cousin from Woodmere, and I was pleased that hardly anyone was not dressed tzniusdik.

At a different wedding at the same hall just one month earlier where the Kallah was also from the 5T, the Mesader Kiddushin under the Chuppah actually waited until they draped a shmattah over the Kallah’s shoulders before saying the Brocha – that’s how undressed she was (and how frum he was B”H)! I was in the back and didn’t realize what was going on, but my wife and daughter filled me in afterwards. I stayed on the Men’s side and never looked at the Kallah, but apparently her dress was SLEEVELESS and BACKLESS!

Oy. I don’t think there is any Orthodox sect that pretends that such a thing is acceptable, no matter how modern.

I currentlly work on 13 Ave in the boropark section of brooklyn.Every day when I do out for my lunch break I go through the external crisis of looking at girls that are dressed not so tznius. Sometimes I avoid this problem by just making lunch at home but I don’t always have time. May someone please help me with what to do when I don’t have time to make myself lunch, or If I just want to take a little break.

Takes 2
If what you said was true then you would have a point. But it’s not.

Shuls should refuse entry to women and their husband/father who goes in public pritzusdik. They should be shunned by the entire community.

To parrot t2

The problem is the tight clothing

I partially think it’s the manufacturer’s fault

Women like to feel thinner than they really are so the size they want to be will obviously feel too tight

I’m currently at my computer playing people. Yesterday, I was fishing for marital advice about my spouse’s late shul entrance. This morning, I was in Cedarhurst fantasizing about tznius issues , tomorrow I’ll be in Bnei Brak looking for a shadchan’te who specializes in resumes. Anybody who ever read The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, by James Thurber, knows what I mean.
Ya gotta give our friend credit, he’s good at this. The question is , why?

Talmid, since you chose a town where that actually does hold true, you do have a point. A person is not always going to be able to earn a parnasah in a tzniusdik place. Tons of Jews work in Manhattan, surrounded by goyim, and life goes on.

I don’t think that negates the OP’s point, however. I believe he wanted to make a post about a problem in the 5 Towns, but he rephrased it as a personal problem, which was smart. If you phrase something as a societal critique, then people will call you a troll and say you’re an extremist up on a soap box. Rephrasing it a personal issue makes it much more likely to get past moderation and be treated with respect by other posters.

As for the merit of talking about it at all, it would be pointless to make the point about Harlem where everyone is goyish. With the 5 Towns, you have a place that people want to believe is the epitome of a successful up-and-coming community, the “New Lakewood,” as it’s been called on the CR before. It’s worth publicizing the reality. Also, nothing the OP said was personal; he didn’t single out individuals or institutions. The only people who would take personal offence with his grievance are those clinging to this strange, Utopian dillusion.

Clothing stores should require a hechsher, just like food requires, in order for frum women to be able to shop there

I have never heard a woman say anything positive about “vanity sizing”.

Joseph, people react to being shunned by saying “Okay, I’m a goy now”. Then they go off, marry goyim, and don’t even put a menorah near their Christmas tree.

…. In between lunch tuna sandwiches, I support myself as an actor in one-man plays, changing personas after each scene… I peek out of the curtain during intermission to see what’s up.. I ignore the few boos and double down to show I’m at the top of my game… Life’s a gas…..

No community is perfect, and there ate likely bigger issurom in posting the name of a community than being an annus here and there and seeing an elbow.

If you find that the standards aren’t up to your standards, bring lunch. I do it every day. You can too. Or order in. Or don’t look. Or switch jobs.

All are better options than spreading lashon harah or motsi sgem rah about a frum community.

osephParticipant

ubiquitin: Can you expand on your point, please? Why are the Yeshivish less strict about this issue than the Chasidim?
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Because the chassidim have thier in house tzinius police like the arabs have. Its like a chasidish police force practicing chasdidish sharia law.
And thats why lots of these self proclaimed chasdidish police are now sitting in jail.

I’ll expand there I don’t want to hijack this thread

Re hechsherim on clothes- problem is that unlike food, the way clothing fits depends on the person wearing it. What is tight on one person can be fine for another, what is short for a tall person, is fine for a short person. The same outfit can be tniuzdik on one person and not on another. Since it is not always the clothing but the wearer that needs to pass a tznius standard, it would neither be practical nor appropriate for Rabbanim to police clothing stores.
There is no need for supervision – it is a market economy. If women were disgusted by untznius styles and refused to patronize those stores, the stores would start selling other things. I have seen here in E”Y that branches of the same store carry different clothing depending on what neighborhood they are in- because they are trying to cater to their consumers.

If you are such a tzaddik work from home

I agree with the OP that there’s a tznius problem in the Five Towns. But there’s a tznius problem in many places. Have you been to Flatbush recently? Or Boro Park? It’s a problem there also. So it’s unfair to single out one neighborhood (which has many good truly frum people by the way) when the problem exists in many frum communities. It’s a universal problem. As for dealing with it I once heard a rav say that there’s no problem seeing it once since you really can’t avoid it. The real problem is when you turn around for another look.

I think Winnie’s point is really crucial with respect to the difficulty of establishing any objective or bright line test for what is or is not “tziniusdik”. It will depend on the woman wearing the outfit. Obviously, certain items of clothing can be seen to be per se inappropriate on the hanger but for most other women’s clothing, the body form will govern. You cannot take your rebbitzen into the changing room with you every time you shop but common sense dictates the likely answer. Also, soe websites allow you to plug in your photo and vital statistics and will show you what a particular outfit will look like on YOU rather than some runway model.

Takes 2 to tango u make me laugh !!! Btw there is practically no tznius issues in Baltimore and housing is cheap. Just saying.

ftresi, it is sadly true that there’s a tznius problem even in frummer neighborhoods such as Boro Park and Flatbush. But that ignores the also sad reality that the extent of the problem is greater the more MO the neighborhood is. In Teaneck and the Five Towns you can easily find people who allegedly identify as Orthodox yet dress little differently than secular America. Pritzus by any definition. Denying that is burying one’s head in the sand. As you go to more Yeshivish neighborhoods like Flatbush, Monsey, Boro Park and Lakewood (yes, in that order) the problem becomes less noticable, comparably, even though it definitely still exists. And once you start getting to the Chasidish neighborhoods such as Williamsburg, New Square and Kiryas Yoel, you get to the point where the problem is really tiny. (Speaking, obviously, of the frum community, not the non-Orthodox/gentiles.)

“Denying that is burying one’s head in the sand.”
And, publicly denying the problem on mass media is like pulling others’ heads under the sand with you.

On a side note, why shouldn’t there be hechsherim on clothing for shatnez? Talleisin have hechshers, but I’ve never seen it on normal clothing. Does it exist, and I just don’t know about it?