Tznius

I’m not sure why squeak and ames are up in arms. All I wanted to know is if ames never asks her rav for the source.

I remembered the last time I asked my rav something, he looked at me and said “Let’s go find out.” And we proceeded together to lookup the halacha to my query. It’s a terrible thing when you can’t question. That was all I was posting. You can now stop with your immature insults and put downs.

NY Mom,

I definitely don’t think that saying “Now THERE’s a tsniusdig outfit” is the right approach. That’s not a compliment – you are calling attention to her wrongdoings.

How about being much more simple: When you see her dressed b’tsnius, say “You look nice today” and no more. Never call attention to the mistakes.

People usually know when they’re doing right and when they’re doing wrong. If you compliment her appearance when she is tsnius, and say nothing at any other time, she will understand on her own what you are appreciating (on a conscious and/or subconscious level). Don’t be surprised if after a while she starts to walk straight over to you every time she is wearing something tsnius, just to get your approval. That’s how powerful this method is.

but I can’t see any self respecting man ask a rav a shailah and then walk away.

i am a self respecting man, and fairly knowledgable in Halacha. I RARELY ask my Posek for his source and would never debate with him. i ask a shaila then i walk away, as generally does everyone that i know (who are all self-respecting men). I have great respect and awe of him and feel like a worm in his presence. He is not my Chavrusa and certainly not my buddy. His time is extremely valuable and in demand. I may have gaivah, but not enough to demand he spend his time to satisfy my intellectual curiousity. I can grow in Torah from him by attending his shiurim and asking questions respectfully there when he asks if anyone has a question.

ames

I don’t know what SHUT Seforim are either. I googled it and the only hit that came up was this very thread.

80 – hang in there and you’ll soon see.

How did you do that? No one told me you joined the Moderating team!…80

NYMom; Squeak,

Usually, I don’t enjoy joining the pointless CR debates (it’s like participating in the same play repeatedly, with the unfair rule that everyone needs to keep their roles and can never change costumes :-)).

However, both of you presented important thoughts that I think are more alike than not, with a bit of tweaking.

NYMom, your pain regarding the deteriorating tznius situation is shared by many other women. In the past 2 years, there has been a startling change in the what is perceived as socially acceptable dress.

Squeak, I had shared your exact thought with a family member yesterday. Reading your posting, I wondered if I know you :). I believe that the “culture of tznius” you mention is the only way to turn the tide.

Now…NYMom, you don’t need to word your praise in such a double edged way :), though I lol at your version! Try this: “I LOVE your sweater. When I was shopping the other day, I tried on some that were similar, but couldn’t find one that wasn’t so revealing. Yours is perfect; where did you find it?!”

Or, “How were you able to find such a nice skirt that is loose enough to be tzius? I LOVE that style, but I just couldn’t find something tznius in that style- you’re a great shopper!”

Or, “This is a gorgeous sweater, it really brings out the color of your eyes. It’s sooo tasteful; fitting you properly so it’s not all tight and revealing- I love your taste”.

feivel, I’m talking about say a general question and you ask your rav and he answers in a way which makes zero sense to you. You are a learned man and you know that something doesn’t add up. Why is it disrespectful to ask a follow up question and get to the bottom of it?

80- that’s funny, because they told ME when YOU joined.

Bemused- I’m very proud that you were mechavain to me 🙂

I never said anything else. Questioning is how we learn and how we pasken. It’s been like this for thousands of years until the past few years.

EDITED

Bemused: I dont know… It would drive me up the wall hearing such comments about tznius all the time. The thing I remember that “worked” for me when I was a teen, was when a parent complimented me on what I wore, with NO mention of tznius there. (Ex, “I like what you’re wearing.” Thats all.) I picked up the hint from there, that what I was wearing was appropriate.

mepal,

Perhaps that is the misunderstanding- I would think it quite strange to make dress related comments, not to mention tznius related comments, all the time! Socially inappropriate!

A well-timed comment on an extremely rare occasion facilitates awareness and pride in dressing tznius- anything more is not only counterproductive, it would be odd. Brief comments of “I like what you’re wearing”, as you mentioned, are also helpful occasionally.

If you can make a comment directly complimenting the tznius aspect of someone’s clothing, and feel genuine sincerity, it is taken in the most productive way. The glow on someone’s face when being complimented in this way is exquisite, and the experience can alter one’s path. If you feel you are “in a play” when making such comments, they will not come out right, and be more of a turn-off than a turn-on. When in doubt, don’t, and stick with the generic. As in many areas, less is more! (Not fabric, that is :).)

“You never find a SHUT sefer that doesn’t do that.”

The local Rav is not a SHuT Sefer. All SHuT seforim present the thought process, the analysis of all sugyos and sources and the outcome of that analysis. If that is what you want, dont ask the shayla, learn through the sugya yourself and discuss it with your chaverim

Most Poskim dont have time for “why” or “what about the Pri Migadim” or “isn’t there a shita to the contrary?”. They have time to answer shaylos. If you respect the Ravs Daas Torah then also respect his time and certainly his dignity by not double checking and second guessing everything he says.

Well I have been reading your comments, and I think well I am not a Rav but I think that tzenius depends a lot were a person lives and the costums of that comunity. If in a certain community the women have to have their heads double covered and somebody doesnt abide by it. Then that woman is not keeping the laws of tzenius right. If a woman has to have a thick stockings in her community and she doesnt , I think she is not keeping the laws of tzenius right. Of course there are certain basis that a frum woman has to keep. We all agree to that. But it all dependes in her community.

NYMom:

A) Don’t tell me to chill out. I’m cooler than an ice cream bar.

B) Yes, clothes make the man. We absolutely do portray who we are with our clothing. That still does not mean that that is all that we are. A woman who is wearing something more revealing than what you are comfortable with is still a “bat melech”. She may shine in other areas than tzniut. Tzniut is not the only thing that makes a Jewish woman special. We have other special mitzvot. (Challah, Shabbat candles and taharat hamishpachah, to name a few.)

C) I’ll read and comment on whatever thread I want to.

D) I wrote choking with two vowels, not one.

Please explain when long loose fitting skirts/dresses became untzniusdik and the same for denim; who made up these fake regulations? Our women are not sluts and if it was tzniusdik for many years; what changed in the halacha?

Also, let’s suggest that women show some m’siras nefesh and add a few inches to their waists and a chin or two so they will be less attracting to the our men who want to sometimes take a walk outside. Their husbands can be moser nefesh for the cause too.

And women, I know it’s great that you have all your hair covered, but that shaitel, you know the one that we tried to get you to wear for many years; well it’s just too good. Get rid of it!

From the sound of some of these posts, I want to institute a new g’zeira: Women should not be looking at other women: at how they dress, what kind of sheitel they have on, what kind of make up they wear, their shoes, their bodies.

IT’S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!

And it is also the cause of lots of sinas chinam and loshon hara.

So women and men, if it bothers you, no peeking.

“Since clothes send a message, what message is she sending to the people around her when she goes around in a short/tight skirt? Would you like to answer this?”

I am totally against the wearing of short skirts for reasons of tznius, but the fact is that the message she is sending is that she is dressing like everyone else in the secular world. It is ONLY the people who dress in longer more subjectively modest clothing, who notice her. EVERYONE ELSE IS USED TO IT!!! And don’t misunderstand, I am not advocating that short skirts are proper to be worn, but you asked what message she is sending. To the world at large she is sending no special message whatsoever. That may say something negative about the world at large for being so desensitized, but it is what it is. And btw, in the 1950s FRUM women went to the beach in bathing suits, wore pants, sleeveless dresses didn’t cover their hair except in Shul and when they bensched licht,and sang in mixed groups with men (Bnei Akiva groups, for example) and virtually no one would ever have considered those Shomrot Shabbos, kosher, mikvah attending women to be untzniusdig. We live in a different time now, when these things have become a real lifestyle change for how we define frumkeit and tznius. I am not saying in any way, shape, or form that the Torah standards ever changed, only that there was a different type of acceptance fifty years ago. And in general, there was MUCH less sinas chinam back then, too. No one ever told the chassidish kids on my block not to play with me or eat in my home, just because my mother didn’t cover her hair all the time. Maybe it was not a perfect world from a halachic standpoint, but there was much good in it that we can learn from today.

NYMom:

A)Chocolate. Chalav STAM. (Chalav akum is not kosher.)

B)That she is stylish, trendy, casual, sophisticated…depends on the skirt. Dressing is not ALWAYS about religion. My point is that wearing a skirt that may be considered not tzniut to someone else is not a way of branding yourself as an untzniut woman.

C)I did not complain. I just stated a fact.

D)It’s okay.

It’s obvious that people look at others differently. I may look at a woman and see her style, or lack of it, and others may only see her clothing as tzniut or not. Some people think they are the fashion police, and others, the tzniut police.

Cherrybim:

Amen to your new gezerah: “Women should not be looking at other women: at how they dress, what kind of sheitel they have on, what kind of make up they wear, their shoes, their bodies.” I think that sometimes it’s jealousy that makes some women hate the way that others dress. They may be jealous that somebody else looks good, or they may be jealous that somebody else is dressed in clothing they wish they could wear themselves. Or maybe tzniut is not one of their harder struggles (or maybe it’s one that they’ve overcome), and they can’t understand how somebody else could dress in a standard that is below theirs. Either way, I’m not sure that this obsession that some religious people have with others’ tzniut is very healthy, both for their physical and spiritual health.

Bemused: Even considering the naysayers you refer to in your most recent posting, is that a reason to fail to encourage, through public discussion, proper mitzvah observance – be it Shabbos (which won’t bring out the naysayers) or be it tznius (which will)?

socks etc: another loose quote: Ben Ish Chai (Rav Yosef Hayyim of Bagdad) “Should one of our women (who dont cover their feet) go to the cities of Europe, she should cover her feet as they do, but she should still cover her hair even as they don’t.” A basic chumros of where you come from + chumros of where go are now deal.

I think everyone has to just realize-IT IS A MAJOR ISSUE! learn the halachos! if you don’t like this thread, don’t read it! And know that just because we’re pointing out one specific area, doesn’t mean that we are perfect in everything else! The work has just started!

Good eye Joseph.

A groise yasher koach to you Joseph.