Tznius

smalltowngirl: Sometimes if people feel they are being lectured or being dictated to by a Rebbitzin/Rabbi/Teacher, they shut down and don’t want to accept it or won’t even listen. I wanted to by-pass that type of reaction. I wanted to let everyone know that I’m just a regular person, just like them.

On the other hand, other people will only respect what is being said if it comes from an authority figure. Oh well!

I am only being truthful when I say that I am not a Rebbitzin and as Joseph says, many MO people, and all the MO people that I know identify themselves in this way.

I am educated, and work outside of the home not in the chinuch world so it may appear that I’m MO.

This does not make you MO. Modern Orthodoxy is specific group of people who want to distinguish themselves from more traditional orthodoxy.

BTW, I am also not in a specific category. I am a Bais Yaakov girl who is college-educated, which is not unusual in the NY area. I don’t usually label myself and try not to label others, but when speaking about tznius, this is useful for the sake of clarity.

Though related, this is actually a separate issue. Hashem made women and put into their nature to be tzanua. Hashem took a bone from Adam from the most covered area for a reason.

The Sefer Torah is something that the Jewish people treasure and are proud of, but when it is not being read, it is covered by a mantle, placed in the aron, and has a paroches in front of it – three coverings. Also, the kodesh k’dashim was the most holy place in the world, and no one was allowed in except the kohen gadol, and only on Yom Kippur. “Kol kevuda bas melech penima” is not just something to quote.

A bas Yisroel is a bas Melech and when something is “out there”, it is cheapened. It shows that it is not valued.

We need to teach our daughters that they are bnos Melech, and to value themselves, as the Hashem values us!

cherrybim: And it’s interesting; years back when “frum women” did not cover the knee or elbow, the men were also of a different mind set and the problem was not on the front burner.

Years ago, non-Jews also dressed b’tznius, and it would have been a scandal had they uncovered their ankles! “Doros holchos u’mismaatos”

That aside, in the time to which you are referring, there was not a widespread frum female educational system like there is today. The bar is higher now. If virtually all frum girls are torah-educated and versed in chumash, Rashi, Rambam, and other varied Jewish subject matter, including halachos, why aren’t they all dressing within normative tznius guidelines – even within the spirit of halachah?

I think our women should be extolled for their accomplishments in areas of tznius, not criticized.

Definitely! Praise on an individual basis whatever or whomever you feel deserves this praise! And I will, as well! However, when there is a problem in our community, there is no mitzvah to ignore it! And when I see frum women who went to BY and are married, walking around with a sheitel, but with clothing that is so tight that I am embarrassed for my husband to look at them, then I cannot ignore the problem!

SJSinNYC: I don’t know you and I don’t know what Rav you follow. If you have asked shailos about tznius and have received piskei halacha from your Rav, then you should follow it.

But I have close relatives who are Modern Orthodox and they have never asked a Rav what they should or should not wear. They just do what they want. They don’t pick and choose a psak, they pick and choose what they want to do. If you have different experiences then great, but these are my experiences and I am only stating what I know.

SJSinNYC: NY Mom, do you ever speak lashon hara? That’s picking and choosing. Everyone picks and chooses, from all spectrums.

I’m not denying that MO people sometimes pick and choose what halacha they follow. I’m just explaining its not a MO thing.

Your point is well taken. Although, I would not have chosen that example as it is not exactly analogous. Lashon hara is acknowledged by all to be a bad thing, and when we speak it, we do it out of weakness. We are giving in to our yetzer hara and speaking words that we know are wrong. (Unless, of course, the person “chooses” not to care about L”H!) However, when someone decides not to cover her hair when she is married, she is b’shitah saying to the world “I do not cover my hair and that is OK”. She doesn’t acknowledge that she is doing wrong.

However, you are right that all people pick and choose their own derech.

But I will also say that there is a difference between people who choose one halachically acceptable shitah over another and people who just do as they wish. For example, if someone decides not to be machmir in chalav Yisroel, he has what to rely on, halachically speaking. But if someone decides to go mixed swimming, do you think that they are relying on a psak halacha by their LOR?

cherrybim: There is something to what you say, but if you think that it is as simple as this, then think again.

Yes, inappropriate interactions between couples does contribute to unfair and unfortunate comparisons, but do you think that a lack of tznius has nothing to do with some shalom bayis problems? Speak to a Rav who lives in NY and deals with couples in conflict, and you will be shocked by what you hear.

SJSinNYC, you also said, If a man says he was tempted by the 1/4″, I wouldn’t believe him, especially because general society exposes so much more than we do.

This is one reason why I do not have a TV in my home and I do not bring in inappropriate magazines into my house either. I do not want to expose my husband and my children to the images glorified there. They are exposed enough on the street to those images and to “general society” as you say.