tznius to wear skirts that just hit the knee or are above the knee?

The end of the joke goes like this

The girl reaches into her bag and pulls out another apple and hands it to the guy, “Here take this apple because when adam ate the apple he found out that he needs to work for a living.”

funny thing, my cousin in seminary only heard the first part.

I’m seeing alot of knee jerk reactions here

From Tznius book:

“All women and girls must cover all parts of their body which Chazal have classified as Ervah. These parts include: the main body (torso), including the hip area; the upper arms, including the elbows; and the upper legs, including the thighs and knees. Their status of Ervah has been established by Chazal and is not dependent on the custom of the local women. . .

The hair of a married woman must be covered with non-see-through material (Kesubos 72).”

If people didn’t do so years ago or don’t do so now because they didn’t know or don’t know that they were or are supposed to do so; no one is judging them, but that doesn’t make it alright to do.

There is no such thing as “Tznius-dig by the accepted standards of TODAY.” There is only Tznius-dig by the standards of the Torah and Chazal.

If someone didn’t keep Shabbos years ago because he was told that he would lose his job on Monday if he didn’t come to work on Shabbos; we don’t judge him, because we’re not “in his shoes.” But the action is still Chillul Shabbos.

Jewish and working 22, your example does not touch upon the bottom-line Tsnius standards — me’ikar ha’din it’s ok. Covering the toes depends on minhag ha’mokom.

According to Halacha, the women’s knees should be covered, that includes when she walks or sits down.

Aside of Rabbi Falks sefer Modesty-An adornment of life(Oz Hadar Levusha) there are organizations as Bnos Melochim which one can call and have their questions answered.

Another issue here is because of openess to the non-Jewish world both audio and visual, some men who are so pulled to the attributes will demand or tell their wives how to dress. Some women do it for Shalom Bayis, unfortunately.

Kindly don’t start attacking me as i B”H am not nogaiya b’duvar. We have children and grandchildren who we are proud of.

Last winter my daughter in law hosted Ateret in her home every Friday night after candle lighting. This is a program for girls to introduce them to the laws of tznius when young. It is done in a fun and enjoying mode.

If my kneehighs will roll down, my 3 year old grandaughter will comment “Babi, you are not tziusdik”. In our family too, the fathers are very makpid on the boys with tznius.

So aside with us women being careful, tznius applies to all of Am Yisroel!

Chazak and Good Shabbos to all.

P.S. Some neighborhood stores that sell women’s apparel have the halachos of tznius posted.

There is no such thing as “Tznius-dig by the accepted standards of TODAY.” There is only Tznius-dig by the standards of the Torah and Chazal”

So do you think the Rabbonim of that time did not know about those standards then? Regardless of what you think, for those years, most non-chassidish frum women dressed a little differently than they do today, and I guarantee you every one of them would faint if she thought you were calling her immodest. When you call someone untzniusdig, you are making an extremely megative judgment about her character. Those women were nashim tzidkonios, most of them, and no one should be maligning them because they wore short sleeves or yes, even pants. There is a big difference between not dressed according to understood and accepted standards, and outright being untzniusdig. It seems to be a very difficult concept for some of you to chaap, though.

And I personally hold by the standard that expects a long enough skirt and sleeves and covered hair at all times, even in my house, btw when I am alone. But my mother O”H, one of the MOST eidel and balabatish frum women I have ever known, did not dress that way, until the last few years of her life. Very few frum women who grew up during WWII in the USA did. You impugn several generations of outstanding women, and it is not the right thing to do, as a Monday morning quarterback.

oomis1105- thank you for your comments- I could not have said it any better…..

Oomis, the Rabbonim of that dor knew that rebuke would be useless, and mutav they should be shogegos ve’lo mezidos.

A piece of chazir is a piece of chazir. It is an Orthodox website — the Laws of the Torah do not change. Even if it reflects badly on your relatives.

And about kiruv, I am Ba’al Teshuva.

k, not trying to be disrespectful in any way to anybody, and if it comes out that way, i apologize.

First, quoting things to most girls is NOT going to work. It might work for those who are “basically tznius” or looking to improve, but those who are comfortable are not interested.

Second, tznius in action, as oomis pointed out, is largely overlooked. Living oot, I have a lot of friends from a variety of backgrounds. As such, some dress more tzniusly than others at this point in their lives, but they are all good girls, alway running to do chessed, always looking for more ways to grow in Yiddeshkeit, ohavei Hashem, etc. And then i have friends who dress tzniusly, and look the part, and yet, the way they act… Screaming in the street, walking in a certain way in front of boys, you get the idea. I’m not saying the first group is right, or the second group is awful, and i’m not saying everybody fits into these categories. C”V!

Third, go into almost any highschool, and ask what the most dreaded speeches are… don’t be too shocked at the answer… they get annoying after a while, and we tend to tune them out.

this is just a random side point-short uniform skirts didn’t start in any one specific school. As long as there are rules, there will be girls trying to break them, and in my school girls have been cutting their skirts shorter for years… or wearing them too long…

Fourth-this is directed to any male who commented/wanted to comment: the same way learning torah is your mitzvah, tznius is our mitzvah. the same way i can’t understand how you have a yetzer hara not to learn, you can’t understand the yetzer hara not to dress tzniusly

For those who tznius isn’t a problem for-good for you! but some people are still struggling. Everyone has his/her struggles, and while tznius is very important, it may come harder for some than for others. People are coming from different places, and maybe they wore the tight skirt, but they didn’t wear the tight shirt. One thing at a time…. 🙂

I guess that I had better not mention the laws of Kashrus or keeping Shabbos; because if I do, then I’m denigrating every Jew who doesn’t keep them, right?

Dealing with the issue of what Halacha allows and doesn’t allow has nothing to do with judging specific people or their character, whether they’re nice or not nice.

If a woman unknowingly reveals a part of the body that is supposed to be covered, or if she wears a garment that she’s not supposed to wear (even if she doesn’t know that she’s not supposed to wear it), like shorts or pants or a too-tight outfit; then according to the Halacha, she is in violation of Tznius, no matter how nice a person she is.

An “Isha Tzadekes” is someone who keeps ALL of the Mitzvos that a woman is supposed to keep, including Good Middos AND Tznius.

For example, if a Jew was raised without a Jewish upbringing and is a kind person, but he violates the Halacha of Shabbos; is he a Tzadik?

Rabbiofberlin, this not the place to mefalpel in well-known shailos which have already been paskened and for trying to disprove Modern Rabbis with the newly-found shvere heteirim. Just to start with — go learn Kesubos 72.

I am not going (eventhough I am capable of it) to start going through the whole sugya here, a well-known sugya which has been paskened on already.

And I take issue with shvere right-wing sachen(zachen) also.

“You seem to imply that wearing pants is not allowed. WRONG. Check the Bach and other Poskim.”

If you would please give me the exact quotes of “the Bach and the other Poskim,” which say that women are allowed to wear pants, I would appreciate it.